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Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

reuters.com

411–420 of 466 posts

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#411
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think recent events in the US make it quite clear that voters don't really consider the things that actually matter when electing a president.

Choose your evil: Elect a dynasty to rule forever Limit voting rights of group X,Y and Z to get "better" votes Remain with the rule of the majority system Elect ChatGPT to rule forever with a "be nice pls" prompt

Well, you could at least move to Approval voting instead of first past the post.

Or you could try sortition, which you haven't even considered at all.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Born in the country lessens the likelihood that you are beholden to more than one master. Born in another country then naturalized still does not rule out sleeper agent situations. Seems pretty obvious to me. I'm one that questions the whole pledge of allegiance forced to be recited by children that have no wherewithal to understand what allegiance even means or the ramifications of that pledge. Yet, I'm okay with bo…

And yet elon musk an immigrant is currently the president

At least he's an African American.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#413
post #334
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler?

Hitler was a "foreign puppet"? This is news to me, can you tell us who the puppet master was? Because it seems to me that person should be as widely reviled as the man himself.

Hitler was a foreigner who caused trouble in Germany, to put it mildly.

You are right however, that he wasn't a puppet.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#414
post #413
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler was a "foreign puppet"? This is news to me, can you tell us who the puppet master was? Because it seems to me that person should be as widely reviled as the man himself.

Hitler was a foreigner who caused trouble in Germany, to put it mildly. You are right however, that he wasn't a puppet.

Wait so the real issue you have is with foreigners, or what's the point here? If he was born in Germany it would've been ok? Don't dance around your point, just be explicit.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A nation has a right to protect itself. It does not have a right to use extrajudicial assassins in a foreign country to kill someone who does not actively pose a threat. In a democracy you have a right to a trial, to see the evidence against you, etc. you don’t just kill people. By the same logic, India would be fine if Canada sent covert assassins to India to go after the assassins and the people that ordered it? Sh…

That's a interesting point considering that Nijjar had been denied asylum more than once and caught lying on his application. Giving him asylum was a result of weird ghetto vote bank politics of Brampton and Surrey. It's not that Canada has never sent assassins to foreign nations. Canada participated in Afghanistan war and people including children, in Pakistan were killed by NATO airstrikes. Where was the due proces…

> Canada participated in Afghanistan war and people including children, in Pakistan were killed by NATO airstrikes.

That's horrible. It should not happen. I was very clear that extrajudicial killings of civilians are wrong.

> I do not condone any killing by anyone. But people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

Agreed. If NATO did something that you find comparable and you condemn it, then by your own standards, what India did is also a violation and never should have been done.

What India did is arguably even worse, since the killing of kids in a war zone at least had no intent or malice, just incompetence. Whereas the killing in Canada was a purposeful and intentional violent and public assassination, performed by hired civilians outside of internationally agreed military command and justice structures, it should be seen as an even more egregious violation of international standards.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#416
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory put up is that your behavior in university, before you get the diploma does matter. If you get expelled due to an action you took before the diploma was granted, the diploma may be revoked, even if that decision is made after the diploma is already in your hands. This is true. If you're caught cheating or commit a crime your diploma may get revoked, including in the situation that you already have the pape…

> The theory put up is that your behavior in university, before you get the diploma does matter. Ok, but why should it? The diploma doesn't certify that you're a pleasant person, have good morals or follow the law. It means that you passed some exams and are expected to have some competency in your subject. The only reason to doubt that this is the case after already giving someone a diploma is cheating, which means…

University used to prove that you are an upstanding citizen capable of holding public office and doing that well, honestly and fairly. Not destroying stuff and following the law is part of that. That's the reason it's required in Turkey. It was very much part of the fabric of the Roman Empire, and when muslims conquered the eastern roman empire, they didn't conquer it to destroy it, they just wanted its money and power. So they kept everything intact, except the head of government, and they kept the rules about public office requiring a diploma. They went so far as to repress islam, even keeping most of the social progress that "the prophet" swore to destroy (such as the abolishment of slavery, which they mostly kept abolished, at least in Turkey itself) to try to maintain the economic power of the empire, which of course didn't work, but ...

For that purpose it makes 100% sense that good behavior is a requirement of getting a diploma.

That's the reason the Turkey situation is what it is (of course Erdogan has already destroyed public institutions in Turkey, during the Erdogan-orchestrated "coup" against Erdogan). There, it's being used as an electoral weapon, and that's not what's happening in the US.

The American situation is different, but some parts remain. A diploma is not meant to just prove knowledge, it is meant to prove that you can be trusted to (help) organize a particular part of society, and that includes things like behavior standards. A lot of this, such as loyalty oaths (as in multiple, most famously the hippocratic oath, but certainly not just that one), the requirement to be accepted by currently important public servants (e.g. there was a time in Europe that to pass lawyers needed to present themselves to a judge from the supreme court and survive whatever test he wanted). There were globally mandated subjects, as in for every university degree (philosophy, state structure, religion, law, rhetoric). Those were not just mandated courses you had to take, you had to pass. 100% on everything, but fail religion? Tough, no diploma (one famous example of that was Einstein, who made it a sport to fail religion class, and was as an exception granted a diploma anyway)

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#417
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choose your evil: Elect a dynasty to rule forever Limit voting rights of group X,Y and Z to get "better" votes Remain with the rule of the majority system Elect ChatGPT to rule forever with a "be nice pls" prompt

Well, you could at least move to Approval voting instead of first past the post. Or you could try sortition, which you haven't even considered at all.

The dream is probably dynamic voting through some login system where it's not done every X years but whenever you decide to change your vote maybe using ATMs as physical voting terminals for accessibility. Then voters can change their mind at any time and cause a change in leadership should the vote not be corrected over Y time. Then on top of that you can add multiple parties, individual person voting, etc. It probably won't happen in my lifetime since governments aren't built to be flexible\agile but one can dream.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you understand how long it takes for universities to decide how to handle punishment situations. This one has a significant complication of parallel legal action. They seized and vandalized a building. They’ve been reviewing evidence and building cases for a long time. These things take time.

If you’re operating an honest judicial board and you’re receiving high profile threats from the US government backed by huge funding cuts to the University, you have a choice. (1) Comply or simply appear to comply, by rendering a favorable ruling immediately, (2) Establish that your ruling is not the result of government pressure. You’d do the latter by (for example) showing your work and proving that the results wer…

Did the trump admin reverse course?

There is no point in giving into threats if the other party is still going to follow through regardless. I think the best argument against this being due to political pressure from trump is it doesn't seem effective in getting rid of that pressure. If trump is the thing they care about here, why would they bother if trump is going to do trump things regardless.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt, but wonder if it's a generational thing, like would the twenty somethings be into strongmen when they're the majority of voters? I used to think the younger generation were a bit different but I've seen them pretty much obsess over MAGA, Joe Rogan et al. So more of the same I guess?

Essentially, young people want change, old people want stability. The right in the US has been advertising in the direction of change so it's liked for it. Especially by young people doomscrolling about "property prices now vs before" and cartelgram/liveleakesque videos. Once you get older you get a stable job, family, etc so you're less nervous about life and have better things to do than to get your adrenaline up w…

> Essentially, young people want change, old people want stability

Old people have learned that change always means worse. Corruption is so big that it isn't really matter who is in power, the system functions as intended. (All over the world)

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#420
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you could at least move to Approval voting instead of first past the post. Or you could try sortition, which you haven't even considered at all.

The dream is probably dynamic voting through some login system where it's not done every X years but whenever you decide to change your vote maybe using ATMs as physical voting terminals for accessibility. Then voters can change their mind at any time and cause a change in leadership should the vote not be corrected over Y time. Then on top of that you can add multiple parties, individual person voting, etc. It proba…

Good gawd that's a nightmare system. Election by mood based polling.

So if a person's poll numbers drop below some threshold, they are automatically recalled? Do you then set a minimum amount of time to keep the polling below that threshold. 0s? 24hrs? 1 week? You've now also limited the number of eligible voters to those with cards that work in ATMs, so people with some form of wealth which is probably in line with how the framers intended

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