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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#411

Post by geysersam »

chii wrote: post #400
komali2 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do have to do it every time, through the fuel tax. Driving costs fuel. I guess people just don't think of it though.

it's not a subsidy if it's a user-pays system. A subsidy is only a subsidy if users don't necessarily pay the full cost, and the rest is borne by some other group of people who _don't_ use the service.

One issue is that people often benefit from infrastructure without explicitly using it.

Example, road network isn't paid by car owners. But non-drivers clearly benefit from the road network, is the road network subsidized?

Other example, people who rarely take the train still benefit from rail infrastructure (freight, reduced congestion etc). Is the rail network subsidized?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#412

Post by DoingIsLearning »

hankchinaski wrote: post #157

Would be interesting to see if the subsidy is covered by additional economic activity to cover the shortfall. If not it won’t last long, money doesn’t grow on trees

Someone in the comments mentioned this costs 3B per year when in comparison Germany spends 20B per year on Oil/Gas subsidies/tax benefits.

Arguably if more people are using rail it can become palatable to shift that money away from the tax benefits and subsidies for Oil which (equally) artificially lower fuel prices from real market prices (and which people seem to have no problem with).

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#413

Post by [deleted] »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #347
Aeolun wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do bigger houses make parenting easier, do bigger backyards? I’m inclined towards a large communual yard (a park, if you will) being many times more efficient at keeping them busy, especially if you have a single child. Lugging your children around on public transit builds character that chauffeuring them around in a car does not. They’ll be exposed to a variety of people and situations they’d otherwise never experie…

The other great thing about public transport is you don't have to "lug" / "chauffer" them at all after about 8 or so (what age makes sense depends on area and the kid of course). They can exercise some independence.

[deleted]

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#414

Post by akoboldfrying »

bastawhiz wrote: post #384
akoboldfrying wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could make a park for 5 million dollars, or the same park for 3 million, you would do the latter, would you not? Then you'd have 2 million left to do something else with. Because that is the comparison being drawn here. A valid objection would be that there are other axes that are material but are not being considered when we reduce the question to dollars per ton of CO2 -- but arguing that we ought not even t…

This analogy simply doesn't work because transit isn't fungible. Trains and air travel or cars simply aren't "the same park". The benefit of trains is objectively not just the carbon footprint. The money spent by the government benefits the public in other ways, not just environmentally. Ignoring the wear on (and cost of ownership of) personal vehicles, for instance, dismisses a huge amount of savings for folks who c…

All the things you listed are examples of "other axes" that I listed as being valid objections. I also agree that it's hard to estimate the dollar cost or benefit of these things. But I think we do have to attempt to estimate it, since we have no other sensible way to decide how to allocate public funds.

It's not even all that difficult to estimate, really. For example, every business does it, of necessity.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#415

Post by Arn_Thor »

londons_explore wrote: post #106
jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

> requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn I suspect the key is to find ways to run railways cheaper. It has been a long time since railways were under severe cost competition encouraging people to look for efficiencies. I think the main one would be to find a way for railways to operate with no staff. Just like a typical road operates most of the time with no staff. That means you need to redesign everything that c…

That is so the wrong approach. If I’m very reductive, I could say that if we automate everything there would be no one to commute left. Staffing is good for people: for safety, information, help for the vulnerable, expertise, robustness of the system, etc.

Perhaps some public services can’t turn a profit but are still necessary. Perhaps they can turn a profit if even more people use them. Perhaps other economic models are needed for these companies, see for example Singapore and Hong Kong where the rail company owns the land at stations and are allowed to develop there which funds the network and incentivizes buildout.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#416

Post by itronitron »

danaris wrote: post #367
Detrytus wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's true in small, peaceful countries like Denmark, but in the US children "excersising some independence" would likely be kidnapped, raped or killed.

This has never been significantly true, and becomes less true every year. The probability that any given child will be kidnapped or otherwise threatened by a stranger is minuscule compared to the chance that they will be abused, kidnapped, or killed by a family member.

It's a low probability, high impact event in a country with limited public access to affordable health care and very limited access to therapists.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#417

Post by Arn_Thor »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #247
londons_explore wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn I suspect the key is to find ways to run railways cheaper. It has been a long time since railways were under severe cost competition encouraging people to look for efficiencies. I think the main one would be to find a way for railways to operate with no staff. Just like a typical road operates most of the time with no staff. That means you need to redesign everything that c…

> That means you need to redesign everything that currently uses people to not need people Simplest redesign is running longer trains - they still need just 1 driver. Britain’s trains are sometimes comically small (3 carriages) and overcrowded. French trains are 2-3x longer, Russia/China even more so. Second is standardisation - all of Uks train companies run different stock and it’s ovsoleye

When you rent each carriage from a rolling stock company you’re incentivized to run as short trains as possible to keep them as full as a sardine can. Renationalize the whole lot.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#418

Post by nsokolsky »

nerdbert wrote: post #333
nsokolsky wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Texas "coming to terms" with it, though? Cars don't scale infinitely but are also way more flexible than rail lines could ever be. If your goal is to have everyone work in downtown Dallas then yes, they suck. But you can just build offices and manufacturing facilities all around the state instead, avoiding the creation of single bottlenecks.

Then you've instead created sprawl which has huge ongoing costs in terms of resource and energy use, as well as disconnecting people and communities.

> has huge ongoing costs in terms of resource and energy use

TxDOT (government organization responsible for road maintenance) has a budget of $30B/year or about 10% of the total state's budget. Not that big of a deal for Texas.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#419

Post by [deleted] »

komali2 wrote: post #377
nsokolsky wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True to a degree but cars also make parenting easier: you get bigger houses, bigger backyards, don't have lug your kids around on public transit, deal with the weather, don't need to worry about rail worker strikes, etc. All America's missing is laws that allow kids to walk to school and adding more sidewalks to enable this, but this is changing over time (see Utah's free range parenting law).

As someone who grew up in suburban sprawl, maybe it makes parenting easier, maybe. But they also had to drive me to and from school every day, and band practice, and every single game, and whenever I wanted to hang out with my friends. I would argue my parents basically were moonlighting as my Uber driver for about 16 years until I got my own car. Big yards are great, but empty. Mom, can you drive me to my friend's b…

[deleted]

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#420

Post by waveBidder »

WJW wrote: post #36
waveBidder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same reason omnivores are sometimes highly critical of veg*ns: there's a moral claim going on, so their identity/ moral standing is threatened.

Vegans? Veg[a..z1..9A..Z]ns? Are there any vegyns out there who object to being put on the meat/no-meat spectrum? Are you afraid HN will censure you if you spell out the complete word?

I suppose I really should use veg.*ns
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