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Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

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Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#411
post #121

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> So what's going to happen? Apple might make their own search engine. Apple has a team that's been creating a next-generation search engine codenamed Pegasus under John Giannandrea. They already have search engines for App Store, Maps, Apple TV and News and Spotlight. Apple web search development worked as bargaining chip in pricing negotiations with Google. Google paid them $20 billion per year to not compete as mu…

Apple could make a search engine but by the same logic, they wouldn't be able to make it default on their devices.

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Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#412
post #389
post #324

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Google's main game is not serving better and better results: It's generating more clicks for advertisers on the first couple of results. The antithesis to Google's business model is someone asking an AI a question and receiving a bunch of direct answers for a monthly fee. Google's business model is people trying a bunch of queries (essentially shopping around), clicking on a whole set of links (each time costing the…

(So, disclosure that I work at Google, but nowhere near anything to do with search or ads.) That is wildly distorting the way online advertisement works, mostly by a sideways denial that "advertising works" at all. The business model is that people who sell "X" want a link to their product displayed when potential customers consume content related to "X". There's nothing unclear or weird about this, and it's not fund…

Totally agree with you about online ads, I worked in that space for years and that's not the goal with Ads. Years ago it became clear that Google was shifting towards taking over the lower level advertiser markets and providing services and automated systems to use Ads without requiring a marketing agency while providing higher levels of data analysis and tools for agencies to tap that market. Has nothing to do with stealing from advertisers, and a lot of Google's internal programs will likely drive more money to these smaller players.

> iOS and search both generate revenue by making the product they're actually selling more effective

In the abstract, sure.

The problem starts with separating financial incentives internally from product improvement and aligning it with short term revenue increases. Then you start separating the financial side from all other aspects of the business entirely, a la Jack Welch. That's where a lot of major US corporations are right now. When that happens, you end up with a conflict between what is best for the company and what is best for the people running the company, and you end up with product quality decreasing.

Right now from an outside perspective it looks like there was an internal conflict in the Search team at Google and the more product oriented leaders were pushed out in favor of the finance guys over the last year or two, with a side effect being lower search quality.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#413

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Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing Why does software suck these days.

Because the money for it is stuck in weird places. I can't write some small bit of software and just sell that for a decent price. People don't pay for software these days, so my best hope is to give it away for free and then running ads. And then, if it's any good, someone will come by and make an open source clone and give that away for free, tanking sales/ad revenue. So the money in writing software is by working…

People would buy Windows. That was one of the few things I bought

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#414
post #117

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Firefox makes you jump through hoops too. To enable the UI for adding custom search engines you need to set the undocumented preference "browser.urlbar.update2.engineAliasRefresh" to true.

This is not really true. The about:config flag you mentioned does add a button in the Settings page allowing the addition of custom search engines, but that's only because the intended method for adding search engines is different. The normal way doesn't require setting anything in about:config, but it might be a little hidden (still found it on my own though, so I dunno). The regular way is to visit the homepage for…

I'm speechless. Such a fantastically discoverable UI, a tribute to Douglas Adams. How did I never find this?

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#415

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Yeah, the calculus is simple. You just lose 20 billion in potential pure profits. Google is paying you 34% of all search revenue originated by you. You have all the financial structure of your own search engine right there. Just make your own damn search engine. You could even put Google's own ads on it to make some money that way.

God forbid their advertising looks anything like it does in Apple News. But with their recent Taboola deal it would seem like their standards are falling, not rising.

Tim Cook is merely out to keep the stock price going up just like every other business. Because they had a longer runway from the era of Steve Jobs, they look better by comparison but they will try and do every trick that everyone else has done to keep the next quarter going up.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#416
post #305
post #106

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This is explained in quite a bit of detail in the judge's ruling: https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rZ1UlL.0... Starting about page 197. > Google understands there is no genuine competition for the defaults because it knows that its partners cannot afford to go elsewhere. Time and again, Google’s partners have concluded that it is financially infeasible to switch default GSEs or seek greater flexibi…

The court is plain silly if it's concluding that multi-billion-dollar deals create resistance or diminishes incentives. If anything, it creates incentives by proving that another search engine could make billions from smartphone fees alone.

Then what is Google paying others for?

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#419
post #31

I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds. Why? Mozilla and Apple will lose significant revenue from having Google as the default search engine and Google will no longer have to pay those billions. What's more, no one else can pay to be the default either (eg the short-lived Mozilla Bing deal). So what's going to happen? Most users will probably still use Google, nobody is getting paid an…

The problem is that when you bundle products, you can maintain your market dominance even when competitors have a better product. Microsoft has shown this to be true countless times, most recently with MS Teams (vs Slack).

Furthermore it doesn’t cut it to be marginally better than Google Search when they’re the default search engine. You have to completely blow them out of the water and for that you likely need long term, sustained investment to pour into R&D. How many VCs are willing to play that long game and invest when you have an incumbent paying $20B+ to block user choice?

The creation of Firefox and Google Chrome are examples of competition that tremendously benefited consumers, but which took many years to play out, after the government ruled against monopolistic behavior.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#420

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> I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot FYI, there is a workaround [1]. It's trash that Apple makes us do this. But you can . Granted, it nudged me to switch to Orion as my main desktop browser. [1] https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.h...

How’s the stability on Orion lately? I want to use it be plugin compatible was too dicey.

Orion crashed way too often for me. I used Orion for a month or two and switched back to Firefox in early July.
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