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10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

miamiherald.com

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Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#411

Post by jmyeet »

jimmar wrote: post #124
jmyeet wrote: post #106

I really want people to understand that a sterile term like "economic sanctions" really means "starving them to death". It's not just food. It's the infrastructure necessary to grow food and to have clean drinking water. It's basic medicines, life-saving stuff. What we, as a country, have done and continue to do to Cuba is absolutely unconscionable. It affects us too. Over the last 60+ years there have hundreds of th…

The UN, UK, and EU have no sanctions imposed on Cuba [1]. Why has no other country prevented Cuba from "starving to death?" Honest question. Is the United States so powerful that our trade is the only thing keeping countries alive? [1] https://globalsanctions.co.uk/region/cuba/

> The UN, UK, and EU have no sanctions imposed on Cuba

The US is the 800 pound gorilla in the room here. The US is 90 miles off the coast of Cuba. Cuba once supplied cane sugar to the US. Now we can't of course because it might hurt the corn lobby.

Imagine if the EU imposed sanctions on the UK, an island nation just off its coast. You could say "the US is free to trade with the UK" and you'd be correct but do you think for a second it wouldn't be massively damaging to the UK economy?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#412

Post by sensanaty »

dakiol wrote: post #277
guille_ wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every culture can integrate, not every culture is a step "forward". Also, your examples are quite weak 1. Paganism was not doing too well by the time Christianity became official. 2. Belgium is a joke country (sorry!) that still has a divided population based on the language they speak. Hardly a success case. 3. Americans speaking Spanish also resulted in losing native languages and cultures. It might be okay to…

I don’t know man. This idea of certain cultures being so distant that they cannot be integrated with others sounds a bit alien to me. If anything, we (all the different cultures in this planet) are the result of a vast amount of mixing over the centuries. We probably don’t notice it anymore (proof that the mix has worked wonders) and we think we all are so good because “our” culture, “our” values. I mean, if somethin…

Even relatively harmless things like haram vs non-haram meats can cause a huge struggle, yet alone other more nuanced, complex cultural issues.

Also should we really be accepting of cultures that openly and unashamedly want to harm marginalized groups such as anyone who identifies as LGBT? Getting some new recipes or whatever (as it appears that's the direction you're thinking of) is one thing, having people decapitating school teachers [1] because of a drawing (which itself was based on a lie) is a whole different thing which nobody sane should be in support of in literally any context, ever.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67664805

What benefits do you see from importing and allowing this kind of barbarism into society?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#413

Post by goodluckchuck »

codedokode wrote: post #291
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Why legalize people who entered illegally? Why have rules and quotas then?

The rules exist so that certain people have a pool of “off the books” informants / assets that they can leverage. If you allow them in, then you lose the stick. If you can’t grant citizenship, then you lose the carrot.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#414

Post by herewulf »

markdown wrote: post #319
zozbot234 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These jobs are low-paying because they're broadly unproductive. If some of them weren't doing these jobs, the wages paid for them at the margin would increase. We are vastly better off importing more skilled immigrants to high-income countries, compared to unskilled ones.

They are skilled. Try taking the best and brightest out of Silicon Valley and put them on farms, orchards, and in construction, and see how well they do. This elitist attitude that low-paid workers are "unskilled" workers is bullshit and needs to go.

As a software engineer who has done plenty of home improvement, gardening, automotive repair, etc, I think the best and brightest would learn quickly.

Now, let's take the average farmer, orchard worker, construction worker, and then chuck them into a software job. They wouldn't know where to start and wouldn't get anywhere without the same educational basics that 99% of developers have gone through. That's not elitist, it's just reality.

So, there's a clear distinction to be made and it's not necessary to water down every word in the English language because we're afraid of hurting someone's feelings.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#415

Post by rgbrenner »

gottorf wrote: post #201
labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations

You as an American can move to France, and you'll never be considered French. Doesn't matter if you speak french every day for the rest of your life with the most perfect French accent the world has ever heard. And if you and your American wife have kids in France after living in France for 20 years, your kid isn't French either.. even if he lives there for another 80 years. Better hope your kid finds a french wife, or his kids won't be french either.

The idea that you move to a country and you're one of them is an American concept.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#416

Post by epicureanideal »

ironhaven wrote: post #402
tonynator wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your argument seems to be that a larger population leads to lower wages, which seems very reductive. Please elaborate

... supply and demand?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#417

Post by mullingitover »

samatman wrote: post #307
mullingitover wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cuba is poor because Cuba is Communist. Is Cuba even that poor, though, compared to its Latin American peers, and is communism the reason? Aside from the recent weirdness with their GDP spike in World Bank's numbers, Cuba's GDP per capita is basically the same as Mexico's, and it's higher than Brazil's, neither of which are communist. Furthermore, aside from raw GDP numbers it's higher in the UN Human Development I…

> The US also fares poorly if you don't count the wealthiest 15% of the population. This is false. The US has the third highest median income of any country in the world, after Luxembourg and the United Arab Emirates (which clearly does not count the income of their foreign slaves). PPP adjusted, btw. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...

Hmm, I'm seeing a different story in the World Bank's data[1] for GPD per capita, PPP adjusted. It shows the US in 12th place.

Regardless, I'm happy to cede this point as it's irrelevant to the topic I was discussing: Cuba isn't that poor compared to its peers.

[1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?most_...

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#418

Post by ghufran_syed »

noduerme wrote: post #374
zozbot234 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jews only got full citizenship rights in many European countries after the Enlightenment and in many ways their assimilation was absolutely a success, despite an enduring legacy of anti-Semitism (which was shown e.g. by the Dreyfus affair in France, not merely in places with a lengthy history of social authoritarianism and anti-Enlightenment values such as pre-1945 Germany). This, if anything, is proof that successfu…

The path from Jewish emancipation in law to Jewish integration in practice was slowed and stymied by antisemitism at every turn, to greater and lesser degrees in different countries. It is hard to believe that Jews were ever regarded as true equals, broadly, in a country which willingly handed over so many to the Nazis. And of course in Spain, Jews were not full citizens and the practice of Judaism was simply forbidd…

the people who “handed over so many to the nazis” - what makes you think they wouldn’t or didn’t gladly hand over non-jews if the regime demanded it? your point about judaism being forbidden in spain until 1978 is shocking, thank you for that.

I would strongly recommend the following essay, which I read in an ethics class and found extremely powerful. The essay argues that humans can relatively easily be persuaded or intimidated into helping murder other humans, as long as they are introduced to it in the “correct” way. So we should understand what that way is and be vigilant against it.

Destroying the innocent with a clear conscience: A sociopsychology of the Holocaust

John P Sabini, Maury Silver Survivors, victims, and perpetrators: Essays on the Nazi Holocaust, 329-358, 1980

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#419

Post by michaelmrose »

gottorf wrote: post #201
labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

Those voters concerns aren't driven by the actuality of social issues with the integration of Somalis they are largely driven by racism and fantasy while on the overall actual crime continues to decline.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#420

Post by noduerme »

bko wrote: post #381
noduerme wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

> It's a relevant question. You are blaming it on the particular group of migrants involved in the case of Europe right now. But historically Europe has ghettoized other groups. My understanding is that pre-WW2 Europe you had community groups that dealt with their people. So in a Jewish neighborhood, you had powerful Rabbis or other religious leaders that dole out law. These unofficial community leaders were given a…

I agree with your negative version of the point:

>> if you don't accept a countries values, you should not be allowed to move there

But in the positive version, I think in America it is much easier to integrate if you do accept American values than it is in some European countries. And this is because, as you alluded, the only thing that makes America a unified country is a social agreement to certain shared values like rule of law, property rights, freedom to conduct business, freedom of religion, and more recently civil rights. Whereas those ideals are only recently tacked on to (most) European nations, and are not core to their identity; one can accept all those values and still never become German, for instance. Even France where many of those values originated has an ethnic nationalist core which denies integration to those who are not ethnically French. So what I mean is, accepting values in Europe is a start, but it is not enough.

And what we see in ghettoized cultures around the world, from African Americans to Algerians in France, is that the ghetto creates its own logic of rejecting the norms of the society which has rejected it. Welfare is not a substitute for a path toward individual success and acceptance in society; this is perhaps Europe's greatest mistake. On welfare, in the suburbs, who will believe and not mock the supposed values of equality and fraternity? It becomes a generational problem.

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