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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#411

Post by datadrivenangel »

jprete wrote: post #366
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Now that you mention it, I don't remember any Biblical support for animals not being conscious. Humans being special, yes - animals being unconscious automata, no. A quick Google search suggests the opposite conclusion can very easily be drawn, although I see no reason to elaborate on those arguments here.

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Genesis 1:26 King James Bible

Don't believe the bible weighs in on animal consciousness. It does weigh in on the question of our use of animals. Modernity believes that consciousness is special, and that we should not eat or use conscious animals, thus, if the bible says that we can eat cows, cows must not be conscious otherwise the bible would be condoning immoral behavior. It's a logical jump, but it is correct moral reasoning based on the premise that consciousness is special.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#412

Post by mbfg »

jbarberu wrote: post #252
mbfg wrote: post #194

I can't say this is backed by anything, i don't know, but my gut feel is humans are somewhat different in that they have developed language both spoken and written to such an extent, that now there is a constant journaller as part of most people's minds documented everything we do, feel, think. This journaller basically happens autonomously, without direction. This journalling mechanism, i think, is what most people…

I definitely don't have an inner voice. I certainly can "enable it", for things such as composing this reply. But in general I'd describe it as a stream of thought, not bound to any language. Then when I need to actually communicate I "pipe" it through whatever language I need (I grew up in a home with multiple languages, don't know if that influences it). One way I notice this is how thoughts are generally unpacked…

>> I'd describe it as a stream of thought, not bound to any language.

as it's your head i accept that at face value. However i couldn't possibly understand how that could possibly work. How do you think not in a language not in words? What are the "atoms" of stream of thought for you, is it picture based, or???

My head talks to me all day long, unprovoked, uncontrolled by myself and in english. i can certainly interrupt and quiet it if i like, but i just am doing something ordinary and notice that i'm mentally talking to myself.

As a corrolary... when you read a book, what is that experience like? do you have a reader reading the book to you? Do you 'hear' words as they are read. I don't mean audibly, but is a story told to you as you read? To me this journaller is very similar to what i sense when i read a book, altho obviously it's not surprising in the book reading sense.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#413

Post by mattmaroon »

tejohnso wrote: post #358
mattmaroon wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you’re suggesting has been the prevailing view among biologists for decades. It’s uncontroversial to say they’re conscious. Whether they’re self-aware, understand death, how intelligent they are, etc. are where the debates are and have been for a very long time.

> I think what you’re suggesting has been the prevailing view among biologists for decades. It’s uncontroversial to say they’re conscious. Then why do we have a subhead the likes of "A series of experiments have led a number of scientists to say animals may be conscious." Makes it seems as though some major discovery is afoot.

Nobody will click on or continue reading to see ad impressions if it said “biologists still think animals are conscious”. Or “biologists differ over the meaning of consciousness and which exact animals qualify.” Whenever you want to know why news sites do what they do, it’s so they can serve more ads. That’s the business model now.

Also most science reporting is not good. They’re quoting an econ professor. These articles are really written by someone with a deep understanding of a subject matter.

Notice they’re not giving you examples of noted biologists who think all animals are not conscious. There are few to none.

The only statement in here that’s interesting is that bees may be conscious. I think you’d get push back on that, depending on your definition, and the article does mention the difficulty of definition of consciousness.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#414

Post by wruza »

InDubioProRubio wrote: post #371
wruza wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you seem to be one of those who denied(?) consciousness of a cat, how do you conceptualize it? Something like “a cat is just a large finite automaton and I am not”? How do you draw the line? Through “soul”? Through “neocortex thickness”? Why a cat would not experience its life like you do when e.g. drugged or seriously drunk? I mean, cats aren’t drunk, but isn’t it easy to experience or at least imagine the “an…

Ability to reflect non-heuristically on stimuli and not fall back into stress-reflex behaviour like schizophrenia. A animal that things god/the government/everyone is after them like a mice, is less concious then somebody able test that hypothesis and leave that fear filled fever dream. Its a scale though, and in my opinion, with considerable overlap, depending on situation and adaption.

Afaict, you are describing intelligence, not consciousness.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#415

Post by ojosilva »

bangaroo wrote: post #395
ojosilva wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans exist along a spectrum and there isn't a sharp cliff where humans are 100% conscious and empathetic but dogs are 0% I disagree, to a certain extent. In my layman terms, I believe "consciousness" is how humans define and differentiate the human mind, so it's exclusive to humans. Other living beings (or even AI) display human-like traits but they should not be defined as "conscious" because that's our own defi…

how did you arrive at that conclusion? i feel like there's still just an element of "it's this way because it is this way" to this argument. the entire point of the article and the discussion is the fact that we perhaps assume our experience to be unique when it's not. it could be just as possible that animals experience consciousness in the exact way we do but simply have different innate motivations and interests t…

Yes, my definition would be more originalist ("because it has been this way") if you may.

Consciousness has been a definition of the inner human experience made by humans themselves, regardless of the lack of clear understanding of what precisely denotes consciousness. Can animals experience what we experience? Well, maybe, but that's not consciousness, as I'm reserving that term to define the human inner experience exclusively. In particular, I'm here to argue that a "scale" proposed by parent is not possible. Why? Because the concept itself was born exclusively from the human experience to summarize the undefinable complexities and interactions of the human mind. Given consciousness is undefinable by specific terms and their relationships (ie. there's no "formula"), we can't really assign partial consciousness consistently to other species. We can say "bees play" or "dogs fear" but that can't really be put in a consciousness scale, because what would "10% conscious" even mean?

> it could be just as possible that animals experience consciousness in the exact way we do

Other species may experience something analogous to consciousness as they also experience complex interactions of different traits in their minds. But it's always going to be their own interaction and I would not call it consciousness. And whatever it is it's definitely not the exact way we do.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#416

Post by LawrenceKerr »

moi2388 wrote: post #250

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

Can we deduce from your comment that you are in fact, not conscious?

We all know what it's like to be conscious (I presume - my theory of mind is intact but may be flawed). It's obviously the quality of being, i.e. experiencing qualia.

And since we as human beings are conscious, it stands to reason that there are probably other living beings (or matter in general) who are not. (Living) matter that doesn't experience the world, basically. No frame of reference. Unless you believe in panpsychism; then everything is conscious and we can ask ourselves what it's like to be a rock.

It's just that the hard problem of consciousness states that we haven't been able to define this "state" in its exact physical, neural correlates, but just because we haven't been able to do that yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It quite literally is the only thing we can know for sure exists, because otherwise no one would be there to ask or hear the question to begin with.

And sure, you can try to break it down into behavior and other properties of a living being, but that is simply side-stepping the hard problem and just ignoring the question of qualia.

Then again, there's something like "aphantasia": some people do not have the capacity to mentally visualize anything, and often aren't even aware of that themselves. I can imagine there's something analogous with the quality of consciousness, i.e. literal "NPCs" who do not experience the world from a frame of reference, but are basically non-sentient, human, autonomous agents. That's just a very dangerous line of thought, so don't take that too seriously :)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#418

Post by arielweisberg »

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Had to log in to upvote this. The sheer arrogance of this not being obvious to people is telling.

Even very stupid animals can think about the future and have anxiety which is pretty direct evidence they are thinking about the good things and the bad things that happen to them. You could argue well yeah, but they don't have an opinion about it, but Occam's razor suggests otherwise. We are built from the same plumbing in most cases even if ours is better.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#419

Post by 4ggr0 »

sim7c00 wrote: post #369
4ggr0 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings. As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.

I never really thought about it that way. killing loads of conscious beings. Until for Eid in Morocco I got the honour of helping to kill a sheep so the family could eat it. (100+ people tribe) I am still not a vegetarian, but do have a much more realistic view on what's really on our plates now. - I don't think eating meat is bad though. I _do_ eat a lot less meat now. (smaller portions and less frequent). Predators…

> I don't think eating meat is bad though

Yeah I guess just the moment of eating it is not the bad aspect, but what comes before this moment. forcefully impregnating animals, taking their kids away from them, letting them live in concrete buildings without much access to fresh air or grass, transporting them in inhumane conditions etc.

> the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep

i frequently wonder if it would be possible to switch to a model where animals at least get to live a full life, before being slaughtered at an old age. probably not profitable at all...

to be fair, as romantic as your moroccan story sounds, i'm not a fan at all of the practice of just slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed out. Sounds like a very traumatic, painful experience if you're a conscious being. and the more i think about it, i'm not sure if giving an animal a good life is enough of an excuse to then slaughter it.

don't get me wrong, i do eat meat (would love to stop), but for me there's no valid, ethical argument towards meat consumption. if people want to eat meat, then they should, as long as they're honest about what exactly it is they're doing.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#420

Post by 4ggr0 »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #390
4ggr0 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings. As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.

I can't remember the exact book I was reading. I think "Old Man's War" or one of the sequels. But an advanced alien race captured some humans and was basically raising them like cattle. Inseminating women, harvesting milk, slaughtering for meat. It really affected my perception of how fucked up the whole process actually is.

Very interesting that you're mentioning this. I had this exact plot as a thought once. "maybe a shocking horror movie about aliens treating humans like cattle could show people why vegans/vegetarians think it's fucked up what we're doing. aliens forcefully impregnating young women/girls, taking their babies away from them after they've been born, genetically raising them so that they produce as much milk and muscle-mass as possible and then just kill them for consumption. if they're as dumb as us they'll even waste more energy doing all of this than they get from our meat."

doesn't surprise me that this plot already exists, as it's not that creative. i must've been inspired by this, somehow, without being aware of it :D

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