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Lynn Conway has died

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Re: Lynn Conway has died

#411

Post by itishappy »

umvi wrote: post #409
itishappy wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simpler than "treat people how they look and act, update your assumptions if corrected"? This system can break down for some trans people (although I bet most make excessive effort to present as their preferred gender), but it also breaks down for effeminate males and masculine women (and I bet this is the larger category). Despite these difficulties, it's worked for literally all of history until people started pret…

Yes, it's simpler because it's immutable. It's the mutability of identity that causes so much confusion and complexity. In Lynn's case she was a man the first 30+ years of life and even married and had kids. Then later switched genders, names, and pronouns. That's anything but simple since now every person and computer database that ever knew her now has to track and reconcile 2 identities. It's incredibly confusing…

You're arguing that somebody who wears dresses and has breasts should be referred to as male? That pronouns shouldn't be based on appearance or preference like we've done throughout history, we should instead invent new classifications based upon unobservable characteristics like genetics or genitalia at birth? And that this is all being done to reduce confusion?

I'll be honest. I'm confused.

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#412

Post by pas »

number6 wrote: post #345
pas wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

human rights in spirit are not. but in practice (see the the argument below) they are used more as a rhetorical shield. they are toothless paper tigers, they are extremely easy to co-opt and corrupt the spirit. (eg. see how Putin loves harping on about self-determination of people in the annexed regions; how proudly democratic North Korea is.) I hope my extreme summarization is not completely useless. https://www.phi…

First: very nice podcast. Second: the biggest straw man I have ever seen. Rage bait Philosophy.Just because human rights are violated does not mean, that they are useless or non existence. It's a good word of caution specially the normalizing states of emergency and dehumanizing people. Civil libertys and democracy are fragile achievements, that need to be protected by the citizens. Human rights are rights against an…

Yeah, I had the exact same sentiment. (As in "sure we don't live in a perfect world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to set goals as a bare minimum baseline".)

Oh, here's one more video on human rights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhRBsJYWR8Q (by Jonas Čeika - CCK Philosophy, a collectivist/Marxist?)

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#413

Post by umvi »

itishappy wrote: post #411
umvi wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's simpler because it's immutable. It's the mutability of identity that causes so much confusion and complexity. In Lynn's case she was a man the first 30+ years of life and even married and had kids. Then later switched genders, names, and pronouns. That's anything but simple since now every person and computer database that ever knew her now has to track and reconcile 2 identities. It's incredibly confusing…

You're arguing that somebody who wears dresses and has breasts should be referred to as male? That pronouns shouldn't be based on appearance or preference like we've done throughout history, we should instead invent new classifications based upon unobservable characteristics like genetics or genitalia at birth? And that this is all being done to reduce confusion? I'll be honest. I'm confused.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I personally think it's simpler to continue to refer to "Chelsea Manning" as "Bradley Manning" with he/him, even if they decided later to completely change their identity. Close friends can call them "Chelsea" out of respect, but society should not rewrite history to erase all traces of "Bradley" in order to accommodate one individual's mental health struggles. I find (the history rewriting) to be extremely confusing and, frankly, Orwellian. That said, if I'm interacting with a trans person that prefers some name/pronouns, I will use them out of respect, even if I fundamentally disagree with a lot of trans activism.

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#414

Post by itishappy »

umvi wrote: post #413
itishappy wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing that somebody who wears dresses and has breasts should be referred to as male? That pronouns shouldn't be based on appearance or preference like we've done throughout history, we should instead invent new classifications based upon unobservable characteristics like genetics or genitalia at birth? And that this is all being done to reduce confusion? I'll be honest. I'm confused.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I personally think it's simpler to continue to refer to "Chelsea Manning" as "Bradley Manning" with he/him, even if they decided later to completely change their identity. Close friends can call them "Chelsea" out of respect, but society should not rewrite history to erase all traces of "Bradley" in order to accommodate one individual's mental health struggles. I…

Do you hold the same views about marriage? That changing one's last name is is confusing and Orwellian? That close friends might humor the individual out of respect, but society at large should refuse to allow history to be rewritten?

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#415

Post by startupsfail »

meifun wrote: post #96
zdimension wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most would agree that a trans parent is better than a dead parent, though.

I'd agree here. As a trans parent I have worried about what living an often non-socially acceptable lifestyle would do to them. But then I see the acceptance as my daughter proudly introduces me as her "mama" to her whole class. I'm a better parent alive living my truth than I am an "unalived" parent leaving a gap for those that loved me for me.

[flagged]

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#416

Post by ncm140 »

lennyzenith wrote: post #382
ncm140 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite thing she said was "Why not question everything?" It stuck with me ever since.

She was kind, generous and from my limited understanding incredibly influential to modern technology concepts. I was able to spend some time with her in Ann Arbor (2000's) and was included in her Successful Transgender People (as a musician). We talked over lunch, and I was struck by how expansive her knowledge and persona was. She and her husband Charlie, loved the outdoors, hiking and motocross. A giant not only fo…

Lenny! Expansive is the best word to describe her mind. She was a wonderer, observer, explorer and connector of ideas. …. I hope you are well! - Nicole, Michigan News alum

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#417

Post by umvi »

itishappy wrote: post #414
umvi wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I personally think it's simpler to continue to refer to "Chelsea Manning" as "Bradley Manning" with he/him, even if they decided later to completely change their identity. Close friends can call them "Chelsea" out of respect, but society should not rewrite history to erase all traces of "Bradley" in order to accommodate one individual's mental health struggles. I…

Do you hold the same views about marriage? That changing one's last name is is confusing and Orwellian? That close friends might humor the individual out of respect, but society at large should refuse to allow history to be rewritten?

I personally am against changing of last names at marriage and encouraged my wife not to change hers.

But to directly address your point... the main difference here is that "dead names" and "dead pronouns" are considered harmful and/or offensive and are therefore actively hunted and scrubbed from history by activists, unlike maiden names which are considered benign.

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#418

Post by pseudalopex »

yawpitch wrote: post #340
InitialLastName wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably more down to food access and/or training disparities than actual “significant” biological factors. I'm not really going to defend the other side here because sports are (by definition) fundamentally arbitrary, but is this really borne out by reality? To use an easy comparison, elite adult womens' track and field athletes might be competitive against high school boys, but not at any higher level. Compare, f…

You’re asking the wrong question… what we’d need to do is take a girl with the same height and muscle mass as a boy and give them both the diet and training (and societal and economic incentives and rewards) of a Usain Bolt from birth, then look for sexual dimorphism’s effect on their sports performance. Looking for support for your confirmation bias in stats that already are influenced by thousands of years of your…

> You’re asking the wrong question… what we’d need to do is take a girl with the same height and muscle mass as a boy and give them both the diet and training (and societal and economic incentives and rewards) of a Usain Bolt from birth, then look for sexual dimorphism’s effect on their sports performance.

The unequal distribution of height and muscle mass is part of sexual dimorphism.

> no obvious biological reason to simply assume that two adult peers that had the same dietary and exercise and skills training regimes would have vastly different athletic performance characteristics

Imagine you convinced someone this was true. They could say trans women should be banned from women's sports because boys receive superior training.

The effects of hormones are not assumptions.

What is your explanation for trans men gaining athletic advantages and trans women losing athletic advantages during transition?

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#419

Post by DonHopkins »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #148
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad but poignant during Pride month. Even in the US, we still have so many people who oppress those who are different, in gender, sexual orientation, relationship style, etc. Lynn suffered that oppression. Yet despite it, she achieved great things. I'll think of her whenever I see a Pride flag this month.

>> Yet despite it, she achieved great things. correction: achieved great things TWICE.

Way more than that: two professional achievements, and innumerable personal achievements of all the people she reached and helped, many of whom have posted here, but also so many more. And not just helping trans people live, but helping cis people understand.

Here's an important point that Lynn makes in her retrospective, about how LGBTQ diversity benefits everyone, especially outstanding women:

https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/Retrospective6.html

>Not only that, but many companies are now sensitive to the fact that locations known to be "GLBT friendly", such as Austin, TX and the Research Triangle, NC are able to attract outstanding employees (especially outstanding women employees) who are not GLB or T, but who want to work in an environment that is welcoming of diversity. More and more bright young people are recognizing that conformist environments that are not welcoming of diversity may not be welcoming of new ideas either, and do not want to work at such places.

>[Note: This concept has gotten a lot of attention recently in high-tech circles, especially due to the work of Richard Florida, founder and director of the Software Industry Center at Pittsburgh's Carnegie Mellon University. Florida is Professor of Regional Economic Development at CMU, and is a pioneering cartographer of talent. The January 2001 issue of the on-Line magazine Fast Company described Florida's work, including the significance of the so-called "Gay Index" in an article entitled Where Are You on the Talent Map (https://web.archive.org/web/20010331103840/https://www.fastc...). For more information this important work, see https://web.archive.org/web/20030112122356/http://www.brook....]

Re: Lynn Conway has died

#420

Post by yawpitch »

pseudalopex wrote: post #418
yawpitch wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re asking the wrong question… what we’d need to do is take a girl with the same height and muscle mass as a boy and give them both the diet and training (and societal and economic incentives and rewards) of a Usain Bolt from birth, then look for sexual dimorphism’s effect on their sports performance. Looking for support for your confirmation bias in stats that already are influenced by thousands of years of your…

> You’re asking the wrong question… what we’d need to do is take a girl with the same height and muscle mass as a boy and give them both the diet and training (and societal and economic incentives and rewards) of a Usain Bolt from birth, then look for sexual dimorphism’s effect on their sports performance. The unequal distribution of height and muscle mass is part of sexual dimorphism. > no obvious biological reason…

> The unequal distribution of height and muscle mass is part of sexual dimorphism.

No, it’s potential evidence for sexual dimorphism. It’s also potential evidence for systemic dietary sexism. You’d need to establish that the latter doesn’t exist to establish that the former does.

> Imagine you convinced someone this was true. They could say trans women should be banned from women's sports because boys receive superior training.

At that point we’d have shown that sexual dimorphism was not at play and that gendered sports were inherently discriminatory, so that hypothetical person would now be an idiot arguing against reality. The obvious solution would be to redirect better training at the now know equally capable athletes.

> The effects of hormones are not assumptions.

Actually they largely are… we really don’t have more than minimal and crude knowledge of precisely how hormones work or what their actual effects are.

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