Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

writingruxandrabio.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

411–420 of 505 posts

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#411

Post by ModernMech »

advael wrote: post #404
CalRobert wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister didn't say her first word until she was almost 5 and would bang her head against the wall. Hearing people say that autism "isn't a disability, it's a differentability lol!" or "oh I must be autistic because I'm awkward", or worst of all "don't try to treat people with autism it's cruel!" (aka don't force insurance companies to cover ABA, which is the only reason my sister can even talk now) is really upsett…

With autism but really any neurological variation in humans, it's often said but seldom fully grasped that most variations exist as spectra. This is hard for people to reason about because thinking in hard-line categories seems like it's more intuitive to most people. Still, I think it's useful to remember that whether you think of it as difference or disorder, there are always degrees There are two competing pressur…

Thank you for taking the time to write this.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#412

Post by Forgeties79 »

michaelt wrote: post #403
abracadaniel wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-diagnosis attitude is surprising on a site like this. Everyone could do better with a better understanding of their own mind, whether it meets the criteria of a disorder or not. And with any kind of better understanding we need more and better categorizations.

> The anti-diagnosis attitude is surprising on a site like this. Did you know, up until the 1970s, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder [1] by the psychiatric profession? Can you understand why many homosexuals felt that they were just being themselves, and that them being themselves didn't warrant inclusion in a diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders? With that thought in your mind, can you…

I honestly do not think that’s a fair comparison to someone with something like depression.

LGBT people had been persecuted from so many angles for a long time, the tools used against them are incredibly varied. Just because mental health diagnoses were (and still are) used as a cudgel against them doesn’t mean the entire exercise of diagnosing should be called into question any more than somebody using a knife to stab somebody should call into question all of us keeping cutlery in our home.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#413

Post by mberning »

paulcole wrote: post #246
mberning wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They agreed, but we have a similar viewpoint on the overall technical excellence of the org, so that part is unsurprising. I am definitely biased, but whether I am blinded to real innovation or progress is something I think about all the time. I think I would not be opposed to the self-promotion, marketing, and branding were it in support of some significant achievement or accomplishment. Unfortunately we have a cult…

It’s obviously not the bare minimum of the job because like you said nobody did it for years. So the bare minimum is just not doing it. You think you’ll change from this experience or just keep doing stuff the way you like to do it?

Consider a person that never brushed their teeth, flossed, or used mouth wash for an entire year. On the night before their dentist appointment they finally decided it would be good to brush and floss. How would you describe that? Would it be fair to call it the bare minimum? After all, it is more than nothing.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#414

Post by anal_reactor »

stale2002 wrote: post #161
anal_reactor wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but seriously. You need to be able to hold a conversation. You need to be able to talk productively with your fellow people, including difficult conversations. You need to open to negative feedback, to be able to take criticism or contrary viewpoints without turning into a puddle of some combination of depression/rage/self-hatred, or people are just not going to get on with you. You implying that non-nerds have any…

> You implying that non-nerds have any of these traits The thesis of the initial discussion is that it is unfair to hold "weird nerds" to certain standards. The person you are responding to is claiming that actually some of these standards are important. Your response to that of claiming that the standards are important is to say that actually normal people don't pass those standards either. This doesn't refute the a…

When people say "I want you to have good social skills" they think "I want you to collaborate with others and not cause drama". These two might seem similar but they aren't. It's okay to expect people to live up to expectations, but at the same time you might admit that these expectations are unfair and put certain people in disadvantage because of their innate traits.

Imagine you have an all-Arab company and you hire a Jew. Of course there's going to be a lot of drama, even it that particular employee has fantastic social skills, and would thrive in an environment full of people from their own culture.

My point is, in order to achieve the same result "collaborate with others and not cause drama" nerds need much higher social skills than non-nerds, simply because they're a minority.

It might reasonable to hold people to important standards, while these standards might be inherently unfair. It depends on whether you value effects or effort.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#415

Post by the-chitmonger »

advael wrote: post #404
CalRobert wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister didn't say her first word until she was almost 5 and would bang her head against the wall. Hearing people say that autism "isn't a disability, it's a differentability lol!" or "oh I must be autistic because I'm awkward", or worst of all "don't try to treat people with autism it's cruel!" (aka don't force insurance companies to cover ABA, which is the only reason my sister can even talk now) is really upsett…

With autism but really any neurological variation in humans, it's often said but seldom fully grasped that most variations exist as spectra. This is hard for people to reason about because thinking in hard-line categories seems like it's more intuitive to most people. Still, I think it's useful to remember that whether you think of it as difference or disorder, there are always degrees There are two competing pressur…

Great take, fully agree. My wife falls into a similar camp as the person you're close to, although she did end up eventually getting diagnosed with autism. It was only because the topic had become so casual on platforms like TikTok and Instagram that she even considered the possibility - she was only exposed to autistic people who would register between Level 2 and 3, which completely blinded her to the possibility that she could also be autistic.

I fully sympathize with people who worry about this delegitimizing their condition, but I am at the same time endlessly grateful that it allowed my wife some peace and closure in better understanding herself.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#416

Post by candiodari »

lukan wrote: post #408
CalRobert wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bizarre romanticization of autism is frustrating for those who are or have loved ones who are nonverbal, stim all day, etc.. I almost wonder if nerfing autism to the point where it's a fun thing to talk about having on tiktok is a way to demonize effective interventions so insurance companies won't have to pay for them.

It is a complicated topic. But I rather see people relaxed with the topic, than freaking out. There was a case of a australian immigrant doctor, who was denied immigration, because his child had autism. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/23/outcr... (after the outcry, the decision was reversed) But yes, it is a serious condition and feeling awkward is not in the same basket.

[dead]

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#417

Post by dbttdft »

It was *very* hard to decode what this article is about when it started off with "quickly forgot about their support for “Women in STEM”", which (after 3 reads of the first 2 paragraphs and then closing the page) has nothing to do with anything, but makes it sound as if the article is about identity politics, which it isn't.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#418

Post by indigochill »

paulpauper wrote: post #324
shufflerofrocks wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So much of talent is just really caring about something specific. Caring about it above other things This is a really nice statement. Definitely agree with it. I've often seen so many fast-starters in many fields who just taper away, because the subject just isn't interesting to them, and it was the peeps who stayed in the field that ended up becoming really good at it. Definitely holds up the old "Average intellige…

You have to be good, and also care, which is like effort. a lot of young people care or put effort into playing sports but most do not have the talent to make a living at it. "Average intelligence and persistence has accomplished much more than genius" For hard problems, high IQ is necessary but still insufficient. You are not going to solve a hard math problem with average IQ no matter how much persistence you throw…

> You are not going to solve a hard math problem with average IQ no matter how much persistence you throw at it.

I'm inclined to disagree, but there's an important piece here that I've found when solving problems that were at least hard for me: sometimes I can get hung up on making a particular approach work when it's not going to and what I need to do is back up and find a different angle of attack.

For example if you're solving a hard math problem with little math knowledge and average IQ, if you're really passionate and persistent about it, then you'd realize you first need to learn more math to build your understanding of the domain. IQ/persistence in this case is not really about the problem itself, but more about the problem-solving process itself.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#419

Post by paulcole »

mberning wrote: post #413
paulcole wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s obviously not the bare minimum of the job because like you said nobody did it for years. So the bare minimum is just not doing it. You think you’ll change from this experience or just keep doing stuff the way you like to do it?

Consider a person that never brushed their teeth, flossed, or used mouth wash for an entire year. On the night before their dentist appointment they finally decided it would be good to brush and floss. How would you describe that? Would it be fair to call it the bare minimum? After all, it is more than nothing.

I take that as a no to my question lol.

Not a great comparison because work is a deal in exchange for money and tooth brushing isn’t a deal you make with anyone.

With employment, the outcome you want is likely continued employment and/or some sort of increase in power/pay/responsibilities/etc.

Can’t really tell which it is on behalf of someone else, but in the programming case, the company agreed to pay for work. Unless people were being fired left and right whose job it was to do the thing that was left undone then the company was satisfied with their output. You can tell because they kept paying them.

With teeth brushing the outcome you likely want is healthy teeth and gums and fresh breath. Brushing once a year the night before the dentist won’t likely get you to that outcome (but if it does then it is good enough).

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#420

Post by ModernMech »

michaelt wrote: post #398
faeriechangling wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CAT-Q survey results mostly, a screening tool designed to detect masking, and autistic men report masking a statistically insignificant less than neurotypical men. Autistic women report masking a statistically insignificant more than neurotypical women. But the women did report masking a significant amount more than the men. Not strong evidence but what exactly is the evidence that autistics are going around masking…

A lot of the stuff I hear people describing as masking is stuff that a few decades ago would have been called professionalism, or manners, or charm, or empathy. When I'm meeting with representatives of a client, and one of them makes a suggestion that I know won't work, and I refrain from instantly and publicly shooting down their idea and instead I make a show of considering it, then ask them a probing question or t…

I think maybe you're misunderstanding what masking is. Masking isn't just not being an asshole. I'll give you some examples.

My face is usually flat, and my tone is usually monotone. Most people modulate their face and their tone naturally and don't have to think about it. When I socialize, I have to think about my face and my tone constantly. Yes everyone is doing this at some level, but for autistic people it takes as much effort as the thing the socializing is meant to accomplish, so that part cannot be enjoyed or suffers as a result of the intentional masking.

Another example is I have echolalia, which means sometimes I have an involuntary urge to repeat things that I heard earlier. I also have various tics where I move my body in wild ways that tend to make people uncomfortable or look at me in strange ways if I do them in public. When I'm socializing, I suppress (mask) all of these urges. I'm sure that most people suppress urges to move their body and make noises in public, but not in a way that autistic people suppress these urges -- again it comes down to it being a conscious effort that causes discomfort. I would compare it to having to sneeze for an entire meeting; all you are going to think about is having to sneeze, and the disruption you will cause if you sneeze and everyone will look at you. But it's not a simple sneeze, it's an action that everyone will talk about and gossip about later, something that will ostracize you.

Another thing I do when masking is more like mirroring. I'm constantly monitoring the situation to figure out how to respond, since I can't use the content of people's words I have to use contextual cues to figure out the appropriate way to respond. For instance I can know a joke is being told by the way someone is telling it, but I might not be able to tell you why it's funny based on the content. Still, I can laugh at the joke but I'm not laughing because I found it humorous, I'm laughing because I discerned the appropriate social place to laugh. And yes people laugh at jokes they don't understand all the time, but for me this extends to everything. I don't know when people are being mean to me, or flirting with me, or scamming me in real time. It takes days, sometimes years of reflection for me to figure out the actual social context of a situation I've been in.

I'm sure all this is true for many people, as I can't imagine socializing is easy for anyone. I do see people who can effortlessly talk with anyone and everyone, and I wonder how they do it, and if they face the same kinds of struggles as me when they go home and decompress. Do they stay awake all night replaying every social interaction from the night before? Do they have to spend days recharging before they can go socialize again? I don't know. But for me it's true to a degree where it makes me never want to go outside again. And that's what makes it a disorder instead of just a quirk or something everyone does.

Post reply on HN