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Is my plane a 737 MAX?

ismyplanea737max.com

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Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#411

Post by kmeisthax »

spacemark wrote: post #374
miketery wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spoke to someone who works there about a year ago. I was trying to gauge how an insider viewed the Max problem related to the auto trim issue which caused two airplanes [1][2] to crash, killing 346 people. This was shortly after watching the documentary Downfall: The Case Against Boeing [3]. The ignorance and non acceptance of fault made me cringe. I won't go into the details, but this wasn't a freak accident this…

All valid points, but I wonder if you've overshot your response to this (very slight) increase of risk to your personal safety. The statistical safety of aviation is the best it has ever been - 2023 set yet another record low for commercial aviation deaths and injuries. Your automobile trip to the grocery store is far riskier.

Miketery isn't trying to rationally adjust their risk profile based on available statistics. They are trying to punish Boeing for being a corrupt institution that corrupts other institutions.

It doesn't matter how good the safety numbers are if any player is able to cheat and blame their safety problems on someone else.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#412

Post by madeofpalk »

aero142 wrote: post #371
madeofpalk wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s next to impossible to actually answer this precisely at any time 3 hours before departure for airlines that fly both Airbus and Boeing. There will be specific planes scheduled for the flight in advanced, but it changes frequently up until departure due to regular airline logistics.

Adding a date of travel and checking the scheduled tail number would be much more accurate.

Kind of. The 'scheduled tail number' will change multiple times in the days before a flight.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#413

Post by StreetChief »

stouset wrote: post #340
StreetChief wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you limiting events to the US? A max 9 crashing in the eastern hemisphere is still a max 9...

Because other countries have—in general—a demonstrably poorer track record than major airlines in the U.S. for a wide variety of factors, including poorer training programs, maintenance regimes, operational expectations, and sometimes cultural norms that interfere with good CRM (crew resource management). I'll address the elephant in the room and say that I don't think it's coincidence that the two airframe losses in…

After watching Downfall, Lion air asked multiple times for additional training but was refused as this would cost boeing money. To me, that looks like Lion Air was more aware of issues than US operators. Boeing never even bothered to inform pilots of the MCAS system's existence before the first grounding.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#414

Post by mkipper »

jessriedel wrote: post #346
ghaff wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An airline is responsible more for safely operating the aircraft (including most maintenance). An airline really isn't in a position to verify every design detail of an aircraft any more than you're responsible for verifying there are no potential design flaws in your (much simpler) car that could potentially cause someone injury.

I think airlines are a lot more responsible for verifying design flaws in their airplane than I am in my car. First, they are a giant business which has way more resources to do this. Second, they are selling a service. If I was running a US taxi service and bought a fleet of flawed Indian cars that caused crashes, I think I would be partially responsible.

This analogy isn't very convincing to me.

Car manufacturing is a regulated industry. When I buy a car in the USA, even for my taxi business, I shouldn't need to hire a team of engineers to verify that it was properly designed and won't spontaneously combust. I should be able to assume that if the car is being legally sold to the public in the USA, the manufacturer has demonstrated that it meets some basic safety requirements set out by the government. I obviously have some _operational_ responsibilities (e.g. taking my taxis out of service if they're recalled for a design flaw), but I wouldn't consider myself responsible at all if my taxi happened to be the first 2025 Toyota Camry that spontaneously combusted from some design flaw.

Regulators aren't perfect but this is one reason they exist. The FAA has a set of requirements for manufacturing and selling planes in the USA and they have a set of requirements for operating an airline. If I'm operating an airline and the FAA tells me that the verification of an airplane's design and its assembly is the manufacturer's responsibility and not mine, I don't think it's fair to hold me responsible if my brand new airplane falls from the sky because of a design flaw.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#415

Post by dawnerd »

Fischgericht wrote: post #410

I find it puzzling that airlines are still ordering this plane. It's not just us, the customers, who should "vote with their feet", but the airlines, too. I would not buy from a vendor that is not able to have a QA process that makes sure all screws and bolts are in place, fastened and secured. Even if it would not be an airplane where this is critical for safety, even if it would just be a toaster, I would stop buyi…

What choice do they have? If they switch to Airbus they’re going to be waiting until at least 2030. They could buy used but that’s goes against why airlines are ordering new planes to begin with. And that’s not factoring in the maintenance cost in switching manufacturers. Thats why you’ll see airlines be a Boeing or Airbus only fleet.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#416

Post by rand846633 »

r00fus wrote: post #381
spacemark wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All valid points, but I wonder if you've overshot your response to this (very slight) increase of risk to your personal safety. The statistical safety of aviation is the best it has ever been - 2023 set yet another record low for commercial aviation deaths and injuries. Your automobile trip to the grocery store is far riskier.

Current stats do not predict future outcomes. Especially since the FAA and transport dept are getting more corrupt/captured as time progresses.

There is a strong correlation between current state and future outcomes. Especially with physical objects that are, in average a decade old.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#417

Post by immibis »

Fischgericht wrote: post #410

I find it puzzling that airlines are still ordering this plane. It's not just us, the customers, who should "vote with their feet", but the airlines, too. I would not buy from a vendor that is not able to have a QA process that makes sure all screws and bolts are in place, fastened and secured. Even if it would not be an airplane where this is critical for safety, even if it would just be a toaster, I would stop buyi…

Remember that airlines are forced to make good financial decisions, or they'll go bankrupt. That means buying from the vendor all their pilots are trained on, and it means buying from the cheapest vendor, and it means buying from the vendor with the shortest lead time. They might not have much choice.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#418

Post by Consultant32452 »

andy_ppp wrote: post #382
diggan wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But at that point it's too late. I doubt people are that afraid of 737 Max that they'll cancel a flight (and forfeit their ticket) over it. Luckily the airlines I travel with only use Airbus, but if they were using 737 Max, I'd definitely book tickets that I can change at the last minute, and refuse to board if it turns out to be a 737 Max. Yes, that's probably illogical. And probably much of life is illogical. But…

And driving home is still more dangerous than getting on the flight.

Per mile traveled but not per trip.

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#419

Post by StreetChief »

jessriedel wrote: post #347
StreetChief wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do these calculations assume all miles flown by ANY max variant are the same?

Sort of. It averages over them. If you want to dig up some data and make a more detailed estimate, please do so.

Nope I was hoping to point out what is to me a failure of logic, that since previous versions of the plane flew safely, newly manufactured max 8 and 9s somehow have trillions of miles of safe flight. Should we combine all ford mustang car miles driven since the 80s to calculate the safety of the newest version?! Obviously the analogy doesn't hold completely, but the versions of the 737 are different. If I put a jet engine on a ford mustang, is it still a ford mustang? It's the same car, but I mounted a bigger engine!

Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?

#420

Post by sorokod »

kube-system wrote: post #289
sorokod wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spirit AeroSystems may have it's own subcontractors, they may have their own, etc... and buck needs to stop somewhere. The the airliner is called "Boeing 737 MAX" and not "Spirit AeroSystems - Boeing 737 MAX" which makes it pretty clear where overall accountability sits.

Right, but this website isn't for regulators to assign accountability. This website is for people to choose what plane they fly on. Choosing to not to fly on a MAX 8 because a MAX 9 has a part that is failing, is jumping to conclusions. If someone wants to jump that far, maybe they should avoid the Airbus A220 because it has wings made by Spirit AeroSystems. There's a lot of finger pointing going on when nobody knows…

I'll assume you are arguing in good faith so...

People are angry, concerned and not willing to wait for NTSB to complete their investigations and see what if anything the FAA will do with the conclusions.

People are applying a heuristic and for many the outcome (correct in my opinion) is that Boeing should not be trusted.

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