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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

411–420 of 1001 posts

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was very unclear whether this would lead to a wider, joint attack by other forces as well I agree that it's easy to discuss rationally from the outside. Hamas is not a threat to Israeli existence. Without extensive and far superior outside help, Hamas could not hold a square meter of Israeli (non-Gazan) territory). Do you have insight into why Israelis talk about an "existential" war? I'm not dismissing their fe…

Israel is surrounded by nations which want to see Israel destroyed, and which have banded together in the past to attempt exactly that (e.g. the Yom Kippur War in 1973). If Israel fails to retaliate against aggression forcefully enough it could embolden the surrounding nations enough to form a new coalition and attack.

First, how realistic is that?

The most powerful neighbor, part of the Yom Kippur War, is Egypt, which in 1979 signed a peace treaty that nobody thinks they will violate. Jordan is a peaceful, cooperative neighbor. Lebanon is not capable but Hezbollah, in southern Lebanonon, is dangerous, of course - too dangerous for Israel to attack, probably, but to invade Israel and take territory? That is much different (and I don't know). Syria has just been through a long civil war. I'm not sure I see much potential at the moment.

Also, the US would openly fight on Israel's side.

But second, it's easy to say, 'it's probably fine' from the outside, when your neck and your future isn't at risk.

> If Israel fails to retaliate against aggression forcefully enough it could embolden the surrounding nations enough to form a new coalition and attack.

And too much force could provoke them. It's not that simple. Escalation is generally considered a bad, amateur move in international relations. The trick is to accomplish your aim (deterrence) without creating a bigger problem. That's how you end up in major wars.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#413
post #11

The things I've read about happening in Gaza are horrific. I'm ashamed that my taxes are funding this. It doesn't feel like there's much that can be done to change that. AIPAC has a very serious influence on our government and I worry that its impact is just leading to more deaths and more suffering.

There is one thing you can do as a tax payer: go on strike. Think of what effect this would have on the federal government's tax revenue as well as the effect on the rich and powerful's incomes if half the country did this.

I bring it up because of this news story:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/11/gaza-israel-...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#414
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but even if I concede the notion that this piece promotes "intellectual curiosity" in some amount (how much?), this news source is highly biased and has been found to spread fake news especially on the events since October 7th including current war in Gaza. There is real harm in spreading this information. As you may or may not know, mobs and individuals around the world are fed such false narratives that…

I attempted to answer that question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38617464 , but to add a bit more: the idea on HN has always been to go by article quality, not site quality ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... ). An article appearing on HN is by no means an endorsement of the site as a whole, nor of anything else appearing on that site.

With respect, Al Jazeera is one of the most biased sources covering the conflict. They are still lying about the rocket explosion at the hospital for example.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

I think an honest answer would be to end occupation and oppression of the Palestinians by Israel. Any occupying force has an interest to silence and stop indigenous people from claiming their land rights. For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. This is not what we call “sovereign rule”. The West Bank ha…

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel.

Those restrictions are in place for a reason, which Hamas has confirmed on October 7th. And, what suffering does this cause exactly? Gaza had an HDI larger than that of many countries not at war, and had areas described as "wealthy".

Any close reading of this conflicts shows that it is an ideological conflict. Hamas and their supporters in Gaza actually prefer that Gaza becomes a hellhole, to rally allies to their side. Do you really think they want a peaceful and prosperous Gaza? No, they want to blow up the conflict, to energize it, to force a reckoning, with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter.

Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#416
post #355

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

I don’t think your take is entirely unreasonable, but I do think you’ve missed a critical detail: Hamas continues to attack Israel. So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose. As I understand it (and wow, the press coverage is incomplete in so many ways), Hamas has a very large number of, approximately, these things: https://en.m.wikipe…

>So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose

There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned.

You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that. When you level entire neighborhoods, and kill thousands of women and children, and make hundreds of thousands of them homeless, do you really expect those people to start liking Israel now? If killing is the solution to this conflict, it would have been solved a long time ago.

If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#417

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

> I'd say that we should not fool ourselves in that the military operation in Gaza is Israel defending itself ("Israel's right to defend itself" is now a commonplace phrase) rather than avenging itself. You may think it is justified in doing so but it still is payback imho.

This is absolutely not the case. A few other people have written about why your numbered list makes this clear, but I want to take a different tack.

This war is costing Israel a lot. It's costing the lives of soldiers. It's hurting Israel's economy indirectly. It is directly very expensive. It's prolonging an ongoing situation which is very traumatic for many Israelis (rockets shot at them and having to go to bomb shelters).

Most importantly, many Israelis want to see the hostages released, and while there are many good arguments for why this war is helping to achieve that goal, there are many good arguments against the war if the purpose is to return hostages.

Despite all of the above, Israelis are in general very unified in wanting this war to continue until Hamas is destroyed. This includes many right-wing Israelis who may have nationalistic/territorial aspirations, but it also includes almost the entire Israeli left, who dislike the current government and hate Netanyahu and some members of his cabinet.

The reason everyone is willing to pay such a high price, and being for waging a war that is costing so much, is not just revenge. It's because Israelis truly feel, to their core, that Hamas has proven themselves to be an enemy that must be destroyed, otherwise Israelis are just never going to be safe again.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#418
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're of course right—and at the same time, if I ask myself how to follow HN's core principle [1] in relation to this topic, I can't see "don't touch it at all" as right either. It may be an impossible quandary—but it's not in the spirit of this place to take an easy way out; or to put it differently, the easy way out (if one exists) is not in the spirit of this place. What does "curiosity" mean in a context li…

Al Jazeera is state propaganda run by the Qataris, who also fund Hamas. The one topic that they absolutely cannot provide unbiased commentary on is Israel-Palestine. Picking an AJ article as the jumping off point is akin to picking a Pravda or RT article as the jumping off point to discuss Ukraine-Russia. I think this community is better than most at keeping things analytical, and you're better than any other moderat…

This is conjecture, not facts. Please provide some actual reason why one should see Al Jazeera as a non-serious source.

btw, the same was said about the Al Jazeera's reporting on the Iraq occupation, and it was equally false.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#419
post #103

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

Isn't defense also supposed to be targeted against an aggressor? How could the millions of innocent civilians that Israel is displacing, destroying all their houses and belongings and killing (and maybe torturing as described in this article), be considered in any way as aggressor? if a terrorist hid in an appartement building, and the police came, start killing all the inhabitants of the building and destroyed the b…

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Gaza, all they would have to do is put their weapons down. Blockade and restrictions would lift, and Gaza could be prosperous. In the West Bank, I agree that the settlements are abhorrent and need to be removed.

This is what happened when Gazans tried nonviolent protest: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-ma... https://archive.ph/vDhPP I'm not implying that October 7 was justified.

Seeing what happened on 7th of October one can understand why IDF is nervous about people getting close (500m is the official buffer zone as I understand) to the fence. Not implying that competition in number of knees shot is justified.
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