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Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

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Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#411

Post by pavlov »

Lorkki wrote: post #404
pavlov wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty boring because it boils down to “I can totally imagine myself doing X with a headset” and “I can’t imagine myself doing X with a headset” — the operative word being “imagine.” I’d love to read a comparison between visionOS SDK and OpenXR from someone who has actually used the latter. I gather that OpenXR is lower level, but what exactly does that mean for an app developer? How much more work would it be t…

> I gather that OpenXR is lower level, but what exactly does that mean for an app developer? Mostly that they won't be using OpenXR directly. It's a standardised layer that lets many kinds of tools and libraries make use of the same hardware.

Well, ok, but since the tools and libraries don’t exist yet… Instead of waiting for somebody else to build middleware and hope it will be good, what would it look like today to design and implement an app that works on both visionOS and OpenXR?

That’s a question that I find interesting. Even if I don’t end up building such an app, it would illuminate the differences between Apple’s SDK and the rest of the industry.

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#412

Post by jimmySixDOF »

pavlov wrote: post #337
andybak wrote: post #334

I don't think there's a single comment here that's about the developer tools. It's all just people debating the merits of the Vision Pro and XR in general. Again...

It’s pretty boring because it boils down to “I can totally imagine myself doing X with a headset” and “I can’t imagine myself doing X with a headset” — the operative word being “imagine.” I’d love to read a comparison between visionOS SDK and OpenXR from someone who has actually used the latter. I gather that OpenXR is lower level, but what exactly does that mean for an app developer? How much more work would it be t…

A lot is still just becoming more clear now the SDK is here today but as usual there are definitely fine print gotchas. There are waay more restrictions in the MR Shared space mode so whatever (Unity/webXR) exports only to RealityKit for rendering with tight Apple conditions. In Full VR mode without Passthrough you have full control so custom shaders but no gaze and a 1.5m motion range limit. The MR mode itself has two flavors single or multi app modes with some tradeoffs like no hand joints with multiapp. Hand Joints are non OpenXR standard so need translation to be crossplatform anyway. And so on. All that said it's great so many experiences can port and there is a lot more interest in WebXR now hopefully WebGPU will fall into place too and it will be interesting to see what we can do with the Internet in 3D.

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#413

Post by ghaff »

gtufano wrote: post #343
_Tomas wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is all true but it can be a little bit of survivor ship bias at play. Look at all the technology conferences over the last 40 years and for the most part you will see a grave yard of tens of thousand of ideas that looks promising but ended up going nowhere Survivor bias is real, but the interesting failures (in comparison to VR) are things like 3D TV. 3D TV has a very weak effect, the 3D effect is basically dis…

I think the key is that this is not a VR device but an AR one. The illusion is harder to maintain in AR but if you manage it is way more tricky. The difference between VR and AR is undervalued in the discussion. imho, the ability to do a credible AR (due to superior computational power and the abundance of sensors) _could_ be the key for Vision success

Except it's not really--in the sense of an out-in-the-world-walking-around HUD. And certainly the keynote emphasized in-home entertainment and (I think?) gaming. It's got elements of AR to it but it seems much more like VR+. (And Apple was almost certainly smart to just coin their own term.)

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#414

Post by foooorsyth »

ulfw wrote: post #320
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can totally imagine walking into a WeWork in 2025 and seeing everyone in the hot desk area wearing one of these instead of their tiny laptops.

That makes weworking and hotdesking in an office even more useless than it already is. Sitting there with your headset on, disconnected from most of the world.

Some people just need a quiet place to work where there’s coffee and clean bathrooms and no toddlers running around tugging at your leg asking Dada to go up in the air.

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#415

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ghaff wrote: post #393
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they had compititors that had better products but to Microsofts luck, could never get a foothold in the market. hmm, this seems to be a rather biased description of the history.

There were any number of better operating systems at the time than DOS, especially in the 1.0 timeframe. CP/M was arguably at least on par. Any number of 16-bit minicomputer operating systems. Probably a bit early for Unix realistically.

perhaps my tendency to expression is overly ironical and indirect at the cost of clarity and obviousness, but I meant it seemed biased that Gates described the reason why MS won out over superior tech was due to 'luck'

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#416

Post by Aeolun »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #183
Aeolun wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about you, but it’ll be obvious to me in much less than 1ms when the passthrough is lagging. You know your hand moves, so when you don’t see it move it’s incredibly jarring.

You might be special. (I'm not being snarky.) I'm a digital musician. 5 ms lag is just barely perceptible to most of us. My intuition regarding proprioception is similar to yours, though -- give me laggy input of my own hands and I'm still pretty likely to get things right.

Well, yeah, it was a figure of speech, the refresh rate is 8ms or so, so you wouldn’t notice it before that in any case :)

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#417

Post by rvz »

andybak wrote: post #374
rvz wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just tells us that this version of Apple's Vision product line up is for the rich tech bros here and is not expected to be used by the general consumers who won't throw $3,500 on a XR headset just like the Hololens. Clearly in the comments it just shows how out of touch they are in reality. There will be a version of the vision product line-up that will be reduced to the size and naturalism of a pair of glasses…

Did you just respond to my comment complaining that people weren't discussing the SDK by... not discussing the SDK? I've read a hundred general comments about Apple's strategy and market fit. Can we just talk about the actual topic of this post for once?

[flagged]

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#418

Post by planede »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #183
Aeolun wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about you, but it’ll be obvious to me in much less than 1ms when the passthrough is lagging. You know your hand moves, so when you don’t see it move it’s incredibly jarring.

You might be special. (I'm not being snarky.) I'm a digital musician. 5 ms lag is just barely perceptible to most of us. My intuition regarding proprioception is similar to yours, though -- give me laggy input of my own hands and I'm still pretty likely to get things right.

Sound travels around 1.7 meters in 5ms. Acoustic musicians can play fine while being apart more of that distance, although there is a tendency to slow down, unless consciously keeping the tempo up (everyone individually feel that they are rushing a little bit, but that's how they just keep the pace).

There is a huge difference between consistent latency and jitter, but even then I doubt that 1ms latency + 1ms jitter would be very noticeable.

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#419

Post by planede »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #185
detourdog wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m most intrigued by the handtracking I’m hoping that ends up beig distinct…. eventually.

I look forward to a virtual, nothing-in-my-hands-but-I'm-still-playing-it drumset. The lack of tactile feedback will make it worse than real drums, but it'll still be fun to be able to play them anywhere.

Maybe Aerodrums should hire some programmers to write an app that just projects a drum set:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CavlglPYVvQ

edit:

They already seem to have a beta VR application: https://aerodrums.com/3d-updates

Re: Developer tools to create spatial experiences for Apple Vision Pro

#420

Post by andybak »

rvz wrote: post #417
andybak wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just respond to my comment complaining that people weren't discussing the SDK by... not discussing the SDK? I've read a hundred general comments about Apple's strategy and market fit. Can we just talk about the actual topic of this post for once?

[flagged]

Jeez. You're really doubling down on this...
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