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Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

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Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#411

Post by tchaffee »

elzbardico wrote: post #348
tchaffee wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I asked is specific: if you know the money is for a hit job will you still accept the business and take your fee or is there a moral line you personally won't cross? Yes, it's the job of the police to investigate but do you want the freedom to not engage in business that you consider evil?

Last time I checked both Visa and Mastercard have no problems being used to buy cigarettes or alcohol. I'd bet that orders of magnitude more people die because of cancer caused by cigarettes and in episodes of domestic violence or traffic accidents caused by alcohol abuse than the number of people assassinated by hit killers hired online and paid with credit cards.

I never claimed the near monopoly of current processors is moral. My claim is easy: we have the right to conduct a business according to our ethics.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#412

Post by 908B64B197 »

arcticbull wrote: post #383
908B64B197 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, once the emergency is over they're required by law to hold an inquiry on whether the action was justified in the first place. So the government will investigate... the government. Do they at least wait for an administration change? Worked out beautifully for police departments... > the Senate or the Governor General - or honestly probably the King (albeit risking a constitutional crisis) - at any time, and…

> So the government will investigate... the government. Do they at least wait for an administration change? Worked out beautifully for police departments... You know the government is currently a minority government, meaning that they require the support of at least one other party to remain in power and an election can be called at any time. Canada's has elections every like 18 months on average under minority gover…

> Any impropriety in the process would have almost certainly toppled the government and led to an immediate election.

Didn't they just have an election that resulted in the minority government? Meaning all parties knew their chances of overthrowing the current admin were slim.

> Paul Rouleau

Weird. He was nominated by a Liberal administration and found no wrongdoings in the actions of... a Liberal administration!

> The senators are appointed by various leaders and are, at least in theory, not aligned with any political party and given lifetime appointments.

By who? Who nominates those people?

> And the Governor General is also pretty unaligned.

And nominated by?

> The King is obviously a hereditary role and lives in England

So weird to read that a foreign, non-elected person can have such a big impact. Feels completely alien.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#414

Post by tchaffee »

kortilla wrote: post #327
tchaffee wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would willingly, knowingly, and personally process a transaction to kill someone? Not your problem, let the police discover it?

If you have evidence that a murder is about to occur, you report it to the fucking police. You don’t just remove yourself from the pipeline and hope it doesn’t happen.

Do you accept the payment and profit or can you refuse the transaction? A parent comment claimed we must process all transactions, legal or not.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#415

Post by arcticbull »

908B64B197 wrote: post #412
arcticbull wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the government will investigate... the government. Do they at least wait for an administration change? Worked out beautifully for police departments... You know the government is currently a minority government, meaning that they require the support of at least one other party to remain in power and an election can be called at any time. Canada's has elections every like 18 months on average under minority gover…

> Any impropriety in the process would have almost certainly toppled the government and led to an immediate election. Didn't they just have an election that resulted in the minority government? Meaning all parties knew their chances of overthrowing the current admin were slim. > Paul Rouleau Weird. He was nominated by a Liberal administration and found no wrongdoings in the actions of... a Liberal administration! > T…

> Weird. He was nominated by a Liberal administration and found no wrongdoings in the actions of... a Liberal administration!

This was a public inquiry that was participated in by members of all major parties. [0]

> By who? Who nominates those people?

The leader of the party in power at the time, which historically alternates between Liberals and Conservatives. In lifetime appointments. Generally, though, the nominations aren't aligned with any federal parties, and the senate has its own political parties. You can learn more about the Senate here. [1]

> Weird. He was nominated by a Liberal administration and found no wrongdoings in the actions of... a Liberal administration!

A Liberal minority that can be dissolved at any time. An important point you keep ignoring. [2]

> And nominated by?

The PM. Not beholden to the PM - and they aren't re-appointed after 4 years. Of course, the PM can't remove them. An exit from this post can only occur through death or incapacitation, resignation, or if removed by the King. [3]

> So weird to read that a foreign, non-elected person can have such a big impact. Feels completely alien.

Charles III is King of Canada - among many other titles - and therefore not a foreigner. [4] Canada has its own independent monarchy. Note that in fact any commonwealth citizen is not considered a foreigner in the UK - a commonwealth citizen with permanent residency in the UK can vote, hold public office and join the UK armed forces.

You wanted someone with oversight who isn't beholden to anyone and suddenly they don't count because you don't like it and it feels 'alien.' Much of their power is ceremonial and as I indicated, if they did reject legislation it would likely trigger a constitutional crisis.

I'm done covering grade 10 civics with someone who has made up their mind on something they have no understanding of. It's playing chess against someone playing hopscotch.

Respectfully you're just asking me to spell out the absolute basics of Canadian government. You can simply ask Google things like 'who appoints Canadian senators.'

[0] https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/about/the-commissi...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_of_Canada

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_governments_in_Canada

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#416

Post by jlawson »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #333
Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

I really couldn't care less about Pornhub and any other digital pimps that made money off revenge porn and CSAM for decades. I'll never feel sorry for them, its executives are rich and without a conscience. > The small organization that helped bring the porn industry to its knees https://www.godreports.com/2022/12/the-small-organization-th... > How Pornhub – one of the world's biggest sites – caused untold damage and…

So you want to hurt the people you dislike, and (presumably) help the people you like.

That's fine, but please understand that some of us believe it's worth having principles. We think it's better for society and humanity if people think above the dislike=hurt/like=help dichotomy.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#417

Post by paulddraper »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #381
xg15 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses are one thing, but what I find truly dystopic about the idea of 100% cashless societies is that you could off people in the same way. If today, you lose access to your bank account for whatever reason, you still have various options how to purchase necessities: If you got some spare cash, you could use that; otherwise you could ask a friend to lend you some cash. In a cashless society, that won't work: Eve…

5% of the US population is unbanked. A "cashless" society would shut out a massive number of poor, undocumented, homeless, etc and make life even more difficult for them. It would also cause skyrocketing issues with burglary, mugging, etc. Many porn actors have been blacklisted from the US banking system. Conservatives got tired of losing US supreme court cases over censorship laws and regulations and shifted to enfo…

> Conservatives got tired of losing US supreme court cases over censorship laws and regulations and shifted to enforcing their morals via the private banking system.

The same thing has happened to conservatives. [1] [2] [3]

It's more of an establishment/anti-establishment phenomenon than a left/right phenomenon.

[1] https://nypost.com/2019/05/25/jpmorgan-chase-accused-of-purg...

[2] https://www.newsweek.com/pnc-bank-trump-mxm-news-account-178...

[3] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gofundme-freedom-convoy-under-i...

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#418

Post by EGreg »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

This is why we started https://intercoin.org

It is everything people on HN deride. Smart contracts. Web3. But it is necessary to save us from a future of CBDCs and Big Tech payment systems being the only choice.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#419

Post by ryandrake »

lazide wrote: post #368
rsaesha wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping someone to doing exactly that in the current system?

There is no such central database, for one. All the transactions are controlled by multiple independent parties, whose interests do not align to do that as they’d lose their customers to their competitors when it came out what was happening. Some of the data does go through central clearing at some step (ACH, Fedwire), but credit card charges, Zelle, cash, checks deposited at the same bank, etc. do not.

Since we are talking about nazis, it doesn’t really matter what is in the interest of independent banks and CC companies. The nazis will simply send the storm troopers to them and get the lists of people donating to synagogues, easy peasy.

With cash, you stay out of those databases in the first place.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#420

Post by rippercushions »

thebigwinning wrote: post #338
scoofy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might, sure, but it might also have to do with the fact that people carry almost nothing in cash compared to 40+ years ago. In 1985, when I was a child, my father would care around $300 on him effectively at all times. Credit cards were still new, and checks were a limited option, most places you still needed cash. That's the equivalent of $850 today. I rarely carry more than $200 on my person today (less than the…

I agree. It was more convenient to rob cash which is fungible. But I actually wonder if the rewards are higher today, with everyone carrying >$1000 phones.

The street resale value of a stolen $1000 phone is far less than the value of $1000 in stolen cash.
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