If they don't have bigger problems than that, I'd say it seems to be a pretty nice community...
Why I Left Rust
411–420 of 880 posts
Re: Why I Left Rust
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…
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Wow, just think of how “woke” Ada must be!
Re: Why I Left Rust
#413Earlier quoted context omitted.
No power over anyone is required. Reasonable and well-grounded arguments seeking to resolve conflict will do.
That requires either both sides to be equal in power or both sides to be willing to stick to the process. From the blog the author believes neither is the case.
Yes, agreed. My objection is to their dramatic language and seeming over-reaction. There were much better ways to express disagreement and protest.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#414Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think its ironic. Its just that a shared ownership model is more complex than having a single person in charge, making decisions. And its a reasonably new idea - not many of us have the experience and skills we need to make it work. Inevitably, more mistakes happen. In many ways its sort of incredible and impressive how well rust functions. There's probably hundreds of people involved, from core compiler tool…
Still, how much simpler, more efficient, and less drama-filled would it be with fewer people, and particularly with a single person in charge? It's like the inefficiency of a prematurely distributed system full of microservices versus a monolith that runs just fine on a single modest machine.
You're still going to need a team of people to do all sorts of $stuff with a BFDL, and when people get involved conflicts happen. Python has been without a BFDL for almost 5 years, and seems to be doing fine. I'm not so sure this is a huge factor.
I think the bigger reason is that Rust tends to go to great lengths to avoid drama and overemphasises kindness a bit too much, which somewhat paradoxical seems to invite drama like this. Things that should be said are left unsaid, pressure builds up, resentment and suspicions linger.
The entire Rust moderation team resigned a year ago, without offering a reason. Who knows what happened, but if three people all resign on principle then it sure gives off a certain smell, and it's not a good one. Being more open would have invited drama, yes, but now the lingering vibe remains "there is something fishy with the core team, but we don't know what". This sort of "there is something but we don't know what" seems to be a recurring theme in RustEnders. I'm all in favour of the goals as such, but I'm a lot less sure that the methods actually achieve that.
In addition: kindness also means being forgiving of the unkindness of others (within reason, of course). People sometimes seem to forget that. Everyone is an asshole sometimes.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…
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I think it parallels the Christian Crusades where crusaders believed they had a moral duty to reclaim the holy land and convert people to Christianity, causing enormous damage in the process. Similarly, the Rust™ ecosystem largely believes they have a moral imperative to replace all software for the cause of memory safety.
Much like priests hidden away in their sacristies, the Rust™ community meets my criticisms with the silence of a prayerful vigil, retreating to the cowardly sanctuary of downvotes instead of engaging in the enlightening pursuit of reasoned dialogue. [1][2][3][4]
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35060939
2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34925457
Re: Why I Left Rust
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure there's a real connection between the languages at least when it comes to "drama". Especially considering JavaScript is the most used language, or at least in the top 5 at this rate due to how low the entry barrier is for serious use. So purely from numbers, there's bound to be a bunch with a background in JavaScript, as with any other new language. You could have also said the same thing about Python for th…
Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…
State your assumptions, prepare to be boarded -9front IRC banner.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its just so odd to me. It used to be that a language was like an impartial technology that could be evaluated. Back in the day would anybody ever say "wow those C++ people are noxious, I'm not going to use objects".
Sadly yes, it's not a new thing. Lisp is a good example of an old language that attracted a very particular community around it that did put some people off.
Guess, now that I think about it, Python and the 'white' spaces was kind of drama. But think it was still about technical merits, like do you prefer that style or not, don't remember the 'community' being melodramatic.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#418I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…
> No organisation should be "called out" for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation unless that organisation is in fact discriminatory.
I don't think you're being very reasonable here. A lack of diversity is just a piece of data: it might be complete coincidence, or it might be related to some underlying bias or discrimination. "Calling out" a lack of diversity is just bringing attention to that piece of data. If you want to ignore it, fine. If you want to make a case that the lack of diversity isn't a problem and/or has nothing to do with bias, by all means do so. But you can't just tell people to shut up about inconvenient facts until discrimination is proved in a court of law (or to your own satisfaction, or whatever unstated burden of proof you think is sufficient).
Free speech and dissent is important. You might not like it when people point out obvious and available data like "hey, this group seems to be pretty homogeneous", but that doesn't mean those people should shut up.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#419Exactly the kind of things that prevent me to approach Rust. Part of their community is very unwelcoming.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#420Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure there's a real connection between the languages at least when it comes to "drama". Especially considering JavaScript is the most used language, or at least in the top 5 at this rate due to how low the entry barrier is for serious use. So purely from numbers, there's bound to be a bunch with a background in JavaScript, as with any other new language. You could have also said the same thing about Python for th…
Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…
Since micro aggressions are a thing number 2 is hardly possible.