Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words • Hacker News Board

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#411

Post by irrational » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:07 AM UTC

midoridensha wrote: post #393

somethingsaid wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase lingua Franca shows why languages become dominant, because they’re the one spoken by the most powerful group of people. It’s not because English is uniquely good at absorbing from different languages. Japanese uses a ton of foreign loanwords for things. So does Hindu. Lingua Franca is a phrase in the most dominant language 2000 years ago, about the most dominante language 1000 years ago, used in the domina…

>The phrase lingua Franca shows why languages become dominant, because they’re the one spoken by the most powerful group of people. It’s not because English is uniquely good at absorbing from different languages. Japanese uses a ton of foreign loanwords for things. So does Hindu. This isn't true. English is easily the most-spoken 2nd language in the world, and it's not just because of Anglophone nation power, it's be…

> it's because English is an easily-learned language

The only way you could possibly believe that is because you are a native speaker and didn’t have to learn it as a second language. English is notorious for being difficult to learn. Especially the abomination of our written language. Try learning Spanish to see what a truly easily-learned language looks like.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#412

Post by samtho » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:11 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #353

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

I remember visiting a shopping mall in Stuttgart. From the parking garage, to the building architecture, to the layout, to the businesses, to the advertising signs, you could not tell you were in a country other than the US. It was kinda sad.

Serious question (not rhetorical). Do you think this a problem could be that large, international cities tend to copy US cities or do you think that they themselves become homogenous with one another? Former West Germany is also a particularly egregious example of US influence due to our historical involvement there.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#413

Post by stevekemp » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:11 AM UTC

Quarrelsome wrote: post #380

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Italian, living in Canada, the reason why I'm attached to my primary language is because I know the most vocabulary and language usage. Aside from that, it's an unfortunate language, since you can't use to communicate anywhere else beside Italy. We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication, when invoking cultural issues. If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing somet…

from my perspective given my English background, I like English spelling. Sensibility says I should just give it all up and adhere to the dominant language form (en-US) for the sake of clarity.... and yet.... I shall not. > We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication But also one might consider, or seek the word, that certain way of spitting, tells some peeps we fam. Language isn't just abo…

> I like English spelling.

I grew up in the UK and prefer British-English to American-English, both in terms of spelling and pronunciation.

That said English has terrible spelling compared to other languages, it's impossible to know how to pronounce a word just looking at the spelling.

I don't need to give examples, as it is well-known already. I benefit from the fact that many people I've met around the world speak English, but it's almost unfortunate that one of the harder/more inconsistent languages "won".

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#414

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:13 AM UTC

foldr wrote: post #267

gbrindisi wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this might be true to some extent, a huge difference between the US and Europe is that in the EU the concept of identity revolves more around nationality than ethnicity/race.

It's 'nationality' under an implicitly racialized understanding. If you are not white, having a German passport will not be enough for many Germans to consider you fully German. That's not to deny that American racial categories are either inapplicable or less central to personal identity in most European countries; but let's also not pretend that the roughly equivalent concept is some kind of bloodless bureaucratic…

[deleted]

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#415

Post by causality0 » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:17 AM UTC

Is there some cultural difference I'm not understanding? Because this looks like a huge sign of weakness. How can you believe your culture is superior while also thinking it needs protection from the government? How pathetic would we think the American government was if it tried to pass a law saying "no use of AAVE" or "no Spanish words".

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#416

Post by opportune » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:21 AM UTC

raspo wrote: post #58

As an Italian now living abroad, every time I go back I am horrified by the way Italians mis-use all sorts of English words in many contexts of life... One example: "smart-working". At the beginning of the pandemic, when we all started to "work remotely" or "work from home", Italians decided to call it "Smart Working". The first time I heard this term from a relative I was very confused, I thought it was just young p…

In the US we call first course appetizers and the main course “entree”. We usually use “sushi” to refer to raw fish rather than rice dish style itself. And we invented the term “Latinx”

Aside from that last one, people don’t generally seem to care

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#417

Post by hnfong » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:23 AM UTC

sobkas wrote: post #179

uejfiweun wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather the way of thinking about the world. As an American who has lived in the US my whole life, it can be tough to see outside the box, so to speak. What parts of the US worldview are being exported? How does it differ with traditional attitudes?

> > rather the way of thinking about the world. > As an American who has lived in the US my whole life, it can be tough to see outside the box, so to speak. What parts of the US worldview are being exported? How does it differ with traditional attitudes? Your evangelicals export homophobia and prosperity gospel to Africa. And other not so nice things that were kept in check by church-state separation on your soil, bu…

> but saw a nipple? End of the world.

Sounds funny on the surface, but it's more consequential than that.

A legit/legal Asian paid porn site that I used to visit was shut down because American credit card companies decided they didn't want to get involved in that business. It's the kind of things that drives people to crypto (disclaimer: I never owned any crypto), and it's not just because of ideological or scammy reasons, sometimes it's just to get away from American hegemony in the finance sector.

There are other similar but more sinister things like these: https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa8xy9/is-the-doj-forcing-ba...

It's fine by me if America is just enforcing their morals within their own borders, but given that the USD is the de-facto world currency, these policies get exported everywhere.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#418

Post by xiphias2 » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:32 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #378

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

> No offence meant to the Americans here, but I detest the exportation of American culture to Europe. I don't mean music and films, but rather the way of thinking about the world. I think music and film are actually the primary way that this American culture is exported. Think about the whole culture surrounding movies - much of it is controlled and inspired by Hollywood. I agree that it would be nice if the rest of…

At this point there are much worse American things.

In a small European country's facebook I can't have a day without a payed onlyfans advertisement hidden in a story about a poor teacher who became rich instantly after she started a side job.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#419

Post by vkou » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 3:54 AM UTC

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #336

Quarrelsome wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try…

I'm Italian, living in Canada, the reason why I'm attached to my primary language is because I know the most vocabulary and language usage. Aside from that, it's an unfortunate language, since you can't use to communicate anywhere else beside Italy. We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication, when invoking cultural issues. If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing somet…

> We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication, when invoking cultural issues. If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing something really wrong.

The people pushing for this do, in fact remember that the primary purpose of language is communication.

Imagine being an aging Italian, or Quebecer, who has spoken Italian, or French all your life, do not have a good grasp of English, only to become unable to understand much of the discourse in your own mother country.

I, myself, am not super keen on seeing Spanish, Mandarin, or Esperanto become the lingua franca of my area.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#420

Post by pyuser583 » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 4:04 AM UTC

mmarq wrote: post #119

pyuser583 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But “Italian nationalists” aren’t a thing. There have been Italian language wars in border regions but they fizzle once non-locals get involved. For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian. But South Tyrol has (had?) a large Sicilian population that supported the local German speakers.

> For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian. They stopped doing that decades ago, before I was born. The language of the German minority is protected and their representation in Parliament is guaranteed by the constitution. The Autonomous Province of Bolzano has a high level of self-government and a special fiscal regime.

Is there much of a Sicilian population?

My Sicilian family (who are historically challenged) say there quite a few there before WWII.