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The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#411

Post by golemotron »

gibbonsrcool wrote: post #403

Is it possibly because they're not sleeping with each other? Seems to be all over the news lately, the decline of young people having sex. The older I get, the less I see sex as optional for human health and well-being. There's no time you crave it more than adolescence, so going without it then could be even more damaging. Sex is not just a fun experience, it's a basic psychological need. Both the left and right in…

Let's see.. it was simultaneous and synchronized across the Anglophone countries in the early 2010s.

It's sort of peculiar for Puritanism to appear suddenly and simultaneously in widely distant countries that share a common language but have different cultures, right?

No, I think the change in phones and what they enabled in social media is a better explanation.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#412

Post by KMag »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #170
YellOh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I would much rather be a (white liberal) teen girl today than in ~2012, but I can see how insofar as Dobbs is only a manifestation of existing trends, I might be in the minority. It's just hard to wrap my head around what this trend would be, or why teens started picking up on it in 2012. I am not conscious of any major modern debates around women's rights except abortion/birth control, and I see no part…

Note that miscarriages are counted as spontaneous abortions in most medical statistics, which was super confusing to me when I first saw similar data.

In this case, the "spontaneous" means naturally occurring. Spontaneous abortion is the medical term for what's commonly called a miscarriage.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#413

Post by dragonwriter »

extasia wrote: post #372
jfengel wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just it: 2012 was the high point, from which the decline is measured. Focus turned to Hillary Clinton, and began the long train of abuse that led to her losing in 2016. Much of that abuse was explicitly misogynist. Misogyny had been deprecated for a long time, but had a resurgence starting right around 2012.

This argument is US-centric and in no way explains the trends seen in the rest of the anglosphere shown in the article.. Why would a teen in Australia care about US law? Maybe I'm missing something.

> This argument is US-centric and in no way explains the trends seen in the rest of the anglosphere shown in the article..

The US culture war is a significant cultural export, especially to the rest of the Anglosphere.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#414

Post by notch898a »

MinorTom wrote: post #344
notch898a wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the old days trans people weren't shooting up christian schools out of frustration. I wonder if perhaps society made a mistake by so many members giving them the false impression that society should accept them for who they identify as. In the old days they pretty much had to learn to accept themselves for who they were and not worry about what other people thought, both because no one was encouraging them they de…

(I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just making this clear for anyone else reading. also: comment talks about suicide) > In the old days they pretty much had to learn to accept themselves for who they were and not worry about what other people thought, both because no one was encouraging them they deserved acceptance and because few would have budged. According to scientific research, around 1/3 of patients…

I've replied above (due to rate-limiting timeout, had to capture my thoughts there earlier).

I have no interest in stopping consenting adult trans or any other person from any surgery/treatment, regardless of how efficacious or not it is. But do not make the mistake of believing because it is the only medically accepted treatment of gender dysphoria (which is curiously a treatment for something that is not even a disorder or illness), that it must be the path to least suffering and death.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#415

Post by EntrePrescott »

sbirch wrote: post #379
EntrePrescott wrote: post #324

That article (i.e. the author) seems to have a weird understanding of mathematics: > "Note that there are two ways to calculate increases. We can measure an increase in absolute terms, e.g., a rise from 5% to 15% of teens with a diagnosis is a ten percentage-point increase, or we can report it in relative terms, e.g., a rise from 5% to 15% is a 300% increase, relative to the anchor point" Uhm… maybe in an "alternativ…

I think you've mixed up relative and absolute differences. Both of your examples are in terms of absolute percentage points (pp, sometimes ambiguously labeled %), but relative changes are measured in percent (%). 300% relative difference just means 300/100 = 3x.

> Both of your examples are in terms of absolute percentage points

No, they are both about relative increases. I didn't even write about absolute increases because (unlike relative increases, where the article makes a mistake) absolute increases were the part that the article got right: a rise from 5% to 15% would be an (absolute) increase of 10% … just like the article says.

> 300% relative difference just means 300/100 = 3x

…My point was: 300% relative INCREASE (i.e. positive relative difference) means that it's the DIFFERENCE (increase) between the initial value and the end value that is 300% RELATIVE TO the initial value (thus the end value being 400% of the initial value), not that the end value is 300% of the initial value (which would only be a 200% relative increase).

Let's take, to better illustrate the point, an example with a relative increase below 100%. Let's go with an example with 40% relative increase. So let's say:

* in the reference year, your company made a profit of 5 million dollars out of a revenue of 100 million dollars, i.e. a profit margin of 5%.

* the next year it still made a revenue of 100 million dollars but managed to be more profitable, making a profit of 7 million dollars i.e. a profit margin of 7%.

* The ABSOLUTE increase of the profit margin is (7%-5%)=2%,

* The RELATIVE increase of profit margin is the absolute increase of profit margin divided by its initial reference value i.e. (7%-5%)/5% = 40%.

And my point is: having a 40% relative increase of profit margin means that your end profit margin is 40% higher relative to your initial reference profit margin and is thus (100%+40%)=140% of your initial reference profit margin, not that your end profit margin is 40% of your initial profit margin… which would be a 60% relative DECREASE (i.e. -60% relative increase) of the profit margin.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#416

Post by ksrm »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #339
lsllc wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb. I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local pe…

I think social media - which is not so much about media but about performative competition - is just part of the problem. Reality for kids seems so much more competitive and ruthless in every way. And there are so few resources available to them to help them deal with it. At the same time opportunities are shrinking and pressure to perform is increasing. It's not enough to be adequate, you have to be outstanding in l…

Modern capitalism, basically.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#417

Post by dang »

luckylion wrote: post #393
dang wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've been applying the rules evenly for years, or at least have put in years' worth of effort to do so. The problem is that no matter how evenly one applies the rules, people with strong ideological passions still feel that we are biased against their side and secretly favor the other side. I think this is because everyone is more likely to notice and place greater weight on the cases that they happen to dislike. ht…

I find the "both extremes are mad at me so I must be doing something right" defense not really useful, as it really doesn't say much about how evenly you apply moderation. You could be a hair's width away from being a fascist, and some full on fascist would complain that you're too left wing, and both a centrist and a leftist would complain that you're too right wing. I don't want to complain about people doing it (b…

> "both extremes are mad at me so I must be doing something right"

I haven't said that and try to be careful never to imply it. Rather, my point is that these complaints about moderation bias (which come in from all political angles) are so isomorphic that there must be a common mechanism underlying them. (People sometimes interpret this as an argument in favor of centrist politics but that's a misunderstanding. It's an argument about social psychology on the internet.)

> I believe you've got it wrong as well, as you'll ban someone like the person here, but you wouldn't bane someone who is the opposite.

That's quite false—we've banned countless accounts on both sides of that divide—so I think you're kind of making my point here. You've assumed something that isn't true, for reasons that have nothing to do with our actual practice. Moreover the users with opposite politics to yours make exactly the same false assumption, just with one bit flipped.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#418

Post by imran0 »

ksrm wrote: post #416
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think social media - which is not so much about media but about performative competition - is just part of the problem. Reality for kids seems so much more competitive and ruthless in every way. And there are so few resources available to them to help them deal with it. At the same time opportunities are shrinking and pressure to perform is increasing. It's not enough to be adequate, you have to be outstanding in l…

Modern capitalism, basically.

Using the word _capitalism_ here might be too much of an umbrella term. We cannot describe everything that is wrong with the world as capitalism.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#419

Post by notch898a »

thelopa wrote: post #330
notch898a wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think searching for a general common solution is precisely why we are getting nowhere. It may be there are some "unpopular" opinions that turn out to be factors. Many small pieces make a large one, and important hints often come in unexpected places.

But, again, why are you focusing on a group that is statistically less likely to commit mass shootings compared to the average person? Even if you find some root cause for trans shooters, you’d be, at best, eliminating what amounts to about 0.1% of cases. Why not look at groups that are over represented?

One day I'm in a coal mine and 1 canary dies, the next day 100 canaries die. I probably think the coal or some mineral in the mine just kills canaries.

Eventually a dog dies. Now I start wondering "Well dogs are only 1% of the dead animals, may as well not focus on that..." I may miss out on an important observation.

If your presumption is true, that trans are more robust against these kind of acts, now I'm wondering. Maybe unhinged poorly socialized young males are the canaries and trans are yet something new. What's wrong in the coal mine and what can I learn by focusing on the newest subjects.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#420

Post by MinorTom »

notch898a wrote: post #414
MinorTom wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just making this clear for anyone else reading. also: comment talks about suicide) > In the old days they pretty much had to learn to accept themselves for who they were and not worry about what other people thought, both because no one was encouraging them they deserved acceptance and because few would have budged. According to scientific research, around 1/3 of patients…

I've replied above (due to rate-limiting timeout, had to capture my thoughts there earlier). I have no interest in stopping consenting adult trans or any other person from any surgery/treatment, regardless of how efficacious or not it is. But do not make the mistake of believing because it is the only medically accepted treatment of gender dysphoria (which is curiously a treatment for something that is not even a dis…

(I wrote this reply as a comment edit originally, but I'm making this it's own comment.)

I understood your comment to be against social acceptance of trans people, (and honestly still do. Admittedly this isn't a best-faith interpretation of your comment, but it made sense in the context I read it in. )

Therefore, my comment wasn't intended to be only about available medical treatment options (including surgical), but also about social acceptance of trans people, which is a kinda important part of all of this.

If that's not how you intended to mean your comment, that's great, because I agree with you on the medial/surgical side of things.

--

(Reply to the parent comment:)

It is the best-currently-known-path for least suffering and death. And a lot better than the currently-known alternatives. I'm not trying to say that no better treatment might become available in the future.

(Aside: gender dysphoria is listed in the DSM-5, which is important for health insurance purposes, amongst other reasons. It was previously named gender identity disorder, but was renamed due to the stigma associated with the term disorder. There was also the diagnosis of "transsexualism" (which included homosexuality, amongst others) and the inclusion of these issues in the DSM remains a topic of debate.)

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