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A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

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Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the analogy, per Sean Carroll [1]: - There seems to be a special direction "down", where things fall by default, because we live in the vicinity of an influential object in space, called Earth - There seems to be a special direction "forward in time", where things happen by default, because we live in the vicinity of an influential event in time, called Big Bang If we had stuck to the local Earth context and g…

It's difficult to see how such a hypothesis could be tested either experimentally or observationally. Sounds more like metaphysics? Stars shine until they run out of fuel, and the age of a star - the status of its fuel, the buildup of fusion products - happens as time passes. Life on planets taps into the flow of sunlight from the star (and/or the flow of heat and chemical energy from the a hot planetary core) to gen…

"Sounds more like metaphysics?"

The regular arrow of time from the human perspective, "leaks" changes into the future. The future is constantly being changed by the past.

You can measure those changes by many ways, the 2nd. law of thermodynamics is everywhere just to make sure you see this happening across everything.

So, probably there are other non-discovered underlying mechanisms in the reality that are already signaling changes from the future "leaking" into the past, changing the past right infront of us, without us noticing it.

A probably omnipresent mechanism for observing the future changing the past, valid in the whole cone of light visible to us, is the probability law.

If you have 10 millions of possible events in a probability, one of them is the exact thing it will happen in the future, hence the information of what happens in the future is right here, existing in the past.

Yeah, you can say how would the nature could use this information without powerful processors predicting branches trillions of times per second on Earth right now?

Well, the brain is a pattern predictor, quite several parts of the brain are firmly attached to the physics of the universe, biochemically but what if the pattern prediction mechanisms in the brain are actually an adaptation of the evolution, just like wings to fly, but with those mechanisms the brain uses probability to "see" information from the future, and here in the "present", it changes the past (from the perspective of the future created originally from the past), if the brain "chooses now" to do something different that what originally created the future it "saw" by analizing patterns, essentially evaluating probabilities.

So the Probability Law would be a kind of Inverted 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics.

It would work perfectly as law of the universe: from the future to the past, the revered time of arrow, one single event created "a" future, but from the regular arrow of time, there would a range of probable future outcomes which you cannot precisely say it has "1" (100%) probability of ocurring, right to exact moment till the future becomes the present.

And it was right there all the time, something obvious infront of everybody in the world, like electricity (which was suspected by many across thousands of years, but just "discovered" recently).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#412
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Life on planets taps into the flow of sunlight from the star (and/or the flow of heat and chemical energy from the a hot planetary core) to generate complex structures in defiance of the regular direction of entropy It doesn't defy the direction of entropy. Frankly, I'm not sure why you have that notion? Entropy is a measure of system's state of equilibrium. Moving energy from a concentrated source, and distributin…

Entropy only increases on average. You can decrease it locally, for example, making steel from iron ore. You generate heat, so you still get a net increase, but you could easily redefine your boundary to only include the local decrease in entropy (the steel from ore).

Yes, but like you said, that requires re-drawing your boundaries. It doesn't really defy the direction of entropy, it only appears that way from having changed scope.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#413
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, apart from the first line, seems like a pretty generic/off-topic "I don't get philosophy and it's stupid" rant that could equally well be pasted under any story involving philosophy. I don't see how it relates at all to the comment you replied to, which I thought was a good one.

Let me explain how it relates. The comment advocated that scientists should profess to be philosophers. Why? Presumably because they are engaged in a field of study that philosophers have claimed. Furthermore the author is bothered that they don't. Why? Likely because if scientists acknowledged their status as philosophers, that would raise the status of philosophers. And so the meat of my comment was illustrating by…

> The comment advocated that scientists should profess to be philosophers.

This context is helpful, thanks.

I didn't advocate anything. I said that it bothers me is that (some) scientists profess not to be philosophers. This is because, in fact, scientists, like all people, actually are philosophers.

> It is because I saw the comment as being part of the genre of people who attempt to raise the status of their field

My field is not philosophy.

> by laying an unwarranted claim to the accomplishments of others.

Neither did I make any claims in my original comment. You seem to have extrapolated quite a lot from a single sentence.

> Philosophy and philosophers do not deserve credit for the accomplishments of science.

The origin of science is obviously philosophical; indeed, Western science is theological in origin (and so is Eastern if you want to broaden your definition of theology a bit). It is equally obvious, if perhaps a bit ironic, that modern science has distanced itself from its earlier foundations.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#414
post #155
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I think the comparison is pretty reasonable. Your entire experience of the world is defined and limited by the fact that your brain "only processes information in one direction of time" (for lack of better wording). Your personal experience does not necessarily map correctly to the real world. The same is true for both examples.

It's not just a matter of our subjective experience of time, it's a matter of the laws of thermodynamics and entropy. Time moves in one direction is another way of saying entropy always increases. If time could move in the opposite direction, then entropy decreases which breaks our understanding of physics.

Just commented about interpreting the Probability Law as sort of "Inverted 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics".

I'll expand here how if the arrow of time actually doesn't exist, the future could change the past without breaking our - current - understanding of physics (tragiclly because we will probably have maybe hundred of years till we change our minds about what are the properties of the universe).

In a range or probabilities of one event, one of the probabilities will always be the one is going to actually happen. Closer to the event to occur the most certain you can be about which one of those, could be the one that will happen.

Here's the catch, you have to change your mind a bit, in our current understanding of physics, the information of the future event which has not happen yet, already exists here in the past for that event.

Now, if you know - and you know - the outcome of an event, you most certainly will be able to choose if you go along that path, or you choose to change the future event to something else. Whoalá, the future changed the past.

Brains of earth continously do this, every second of our entire lives, animal brains do this too, almost all life on Earth has some neurological, physiological, chemical predictive mechanism in place.

An example, you're about to walk across a street, you see a car coming, now your brain "predicts" you'll be hit by that car if you just keep walking, you stop walking to avoid certain death, done, the future changed the past. The information - really close to 100% of probability of death - extracted by the brain from the sheer reality of the universe, allowed you to survive.

And no current understanding of physics got harmed anywhere along the way of the future changing the past.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#415

> It may seem eerie to our brains, which process events sequentially, but the history of science is also littered with examples of human biases leading to bad conclusions, such as the Earth-centric model of the solar system. Slow down. Assuming that time moves in one direction is not comparable to geocentrism.

I think the actual assumption is that we are currently seeing just one direction of the arrow of time, but if there is no arrow of time, maybe we are already seeing the future and not realizing it is the future.

I commented further in this line of though in another comments, about a probable (ironically), "Inverted 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics" of sorts, which it would be basically just the Law of Probability, interpreted from the point of view of not having an actual arrow of time and the fact that we have - all the time, again ironically - the information of what happens in the future (the one probability in the range which ends being the right one, actually ocurring).

Yeah, I know it would be another Law, and the universe would upside down once again for us the poor meatbags, but we were already in this position several times, discovering the electricity, quantum mechanics, relativiy, you name it.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#416
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems crazy - that my decision to have a ham sandwich for lunch had to be propagated all the way back to the start of the universe in order to happen ;) And yes, provability is a major problem with all these kinds of theories. We don't have a parallel universe handy as a control, and just saying "I am not going to have a ham sandwich tomorrow" isn't a viable experiment.

>had to be propagated all the way back to the start of the universe in order to happen ;) Technically, casualty required that anyway. My understanding that it's infinity in space, not time that matters here. i.e. predicting your decision to have a ham sandwich may require predicting the entire universe and since we're part of the universe and can't look from 'outside' that decision would be unpredictable from inside…

Mmm, not really unpredictable, it is easy for thought exercises to avoid the dirty real world, but in the real world, Large Language Models have recently proven that many quite difficult abstract probability exercises, when taken to the real world and applying training, can be succesfully solved well beyond our most wildly expectations of precision, speed and accuracy.

So yes, the prediction of the decision to have a ham sandwich tomorrow, for any given person is now, by the state of the art of applied mathematics and information science, a relative doable - if not plain easy - feat.

And according to some hypothesis, the brain could be doing this exactly kind of predictions, even more better than LLMs, with more accuracy/speed using way less energy.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#417
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>had to be propagated all the way back to the start of the universe in order to happen ;) Technically, casualty required that anyway. My understanding that it's infinity in space, not time that matters here. i.e. predicting your decision to have a ham sandwich may require predicting the entire universe and since we're part of the universe and can't look from 'outside' that decision would be unpredictable from inside…

Mmm, not really unpredictable, it is easy for thought exercises to avoid the dirty real world, but in the real world, Large Language Models have recently proven that many quite difficult abstract probability exercises, when taken to the real world and applying training, can be succesfully solved well beyond our most wildly expectations of precision, speed and accuracy. So yes, the prediction of the decision to have a…

> the prediction of the decision to have a ham sandwich tomorrow, for any given person is now, by the state of the art of applied mathematics and information science, a relative doable - if not plain easy - feat.

Sure, the LLM may be able to guess by reasoning (e.g. 'He always eats ham sandwiches for breakfast and he probably wouldn't break his routine'), the same way we could guess at another person's behaviour, but we're talking about reducing the brain into a deterministic input/output machine, which is a far larger ask.

Now if you said 'doable' that may be right in the long term, but 'easy'? Absolutely not. There's no current way to feed 'me' or 'you' into an equivalent LLM. The human brain has more axons then there are stars in the galaxy and we are nowhere close to even mapping these connections.

>The brain could be doing this exactly kind of predictions, even more better than LLMs, with more accuracy/speed using way less energy.

That's definitely an option. The fact that many of the brain's operations could be done by LLMs is a strike against the original thesis.

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#418
post #66
post #43

I used to believe that the world is lazily loaded. That means the first moment I see something (e.g., a world map) is the point where all the past history to consistently explain the observation gets "locked in".

Was coming to say something like this. Gets to some fun conclusions - ex. paleontologists invent dinosaurs by looking for them. Another angle on it would be showing that the universe has multiple possible levels of detail - that objects behave like newtonian point masses most of the time, that digestion is replaced by a simple hunger meter when nobody's paying attention. From this direction, time's main function is c…

》 ex. paleontologists invent dinosaurs by looking for them.

I have seen creationists in web forums trot this exact argument out (only the creator was God of course).

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#419
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the analogy, per Sean Carroll [1]: - There seems to be a special direction "down", where things fall by default, because we live in the vicinity of an influential object in space, called Earth - There seems to be a special direction "forward in time", where things happen by default, because we live in the vicinity of an influential event in time, called Big Bang If we had stuck to the local Earth context and g…

Right, entropy can decrease, just with low probability, which you can calculate using the Fluctuation Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluctuation_theorem Perhaps given infinite time, we will randomly get back to a low entropy state infinite times, but I don't know enough about the math to say for sure.

Infinite time is too much of a “get out from jail” card, because during infinite time anything and everything will happen by definition

Re: A growing number of scientists are convinced the future influences the past

#420
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The direction of causality should also be reversed from what I can tell. Instead of a bullet slowing down as it hits air molecules and pushes them out of the way, the air molecules push on the bullet because the bullet will be sucked into the barrel in the future. More on topic, I think our existing theories of reality tell us that the future probably affects the past, or at very least, is predetermined. If you know…

but what about reverse falling cartridge? Will spacetime around Earth change from "hole" to "hill"?

That's not going to be necessary.
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