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I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

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Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how does eg a device programmatically tell the firewall to allow traffic in in this case? This is done via UPNP on ipv4 NAT. If you're going to say there isn't a way and you need to add the firewall rules manually, then this is absolutely no improvement for 99%+ of consumer users who have absolutely no chance of understanding how to configure that. Think of for example Xbox users. On ipv4 with NAT it automaticall…

Lots router have UPNP disabled or blocked, and thing still work. UPNP isn't great. First The firewalls are stateful. Client inside your network attempts to connect to some system outside. The firewall adds an entry to the state table with client ip, destination ip, protocol, ports, and so on. If an incoming packet is received by the firewall, the state table is checked. If there is an matching entry for the ips, prot…

I understand how stateful firewalls work. But to allow game servers etc to run, you need to explicitly accept incoming connections somewhere, as you don't know the IPs in advance that will connect.

Then if you're using STUN and TURN (which you'll have to, because non technical users do not find configuring firewalls easy) then what is the advantage of IPv6 to a consumer? There is no real p2p benefits.

I'm trying to call out this contradiction:

1) You need a firewall on IPv6 instead of relying on NAT, otherwise everything is routable globally and insecure 2) There will be this glorious new p2p world for consumers with ipv6

If you need a firewall, then really for non technical users you cannot have this p2p world. It is too complicated.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#412

Everyone always goes with the "You don't need NAT, everything is globally routable!" argument, as if that's something that anybody wants. Everything on my network is going to go through my firewall anyway. I don't want anything on my network to be globally routable. Of course, this is not a good reason to not use IPv6, don't get me wrong. It's a problem that's easy to overcome, I just think it's not a good way to get…

> Everything on my network is going to go through my firewall anyway. I don't want anything on my network to be globally routable. Globally routable ≠ globally connectible. Your (stateful) firewall will still by default block any incoming connection attempts if they are not replies to an initial outgoing connection. It's just that it will no longer be necessary to go through the rigamarole of STUN, TURN, ICE, etc, th…

> Globally routable ≠ globally connectible

Tell us with the next 0 day, because that big problem exist, and unfortunately happens every days.

IPv6 == All your devices are globally ROUTABLE and CONNECTIBLE from Internet, your home network is part of internet. It is an additional rule in the router's firewall what temporarily avoids it. Remark in temporarily, as one day the gifted packet will arrive to the router. This is not cool.

So much so -the home network is part of internet- that if you want to create a simple Video NAS or whatever, one have to use external DNS services, as no one have control over its own local IPs... what are served by the ISP. This is not cool.

Even if it was not designed for it, NAT has been helping to secure and giving flexibility to our local networks along decades, but someones decided to reject it from the specification. Bad decision.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how does eg a device programmatically tell the firewall to allow traffic in in this case? This is done via UPNP on ipv4 NAT. If you're going to say there isn't a way and you need to add the firewall rules manually, then this is absolutely no improvement for 99%+ of consumer users who have absolutely no chance of understanding how to configure that. Think of for example Xbox users. On ipv4 with NAT it automaticall…

Every guide I see tells you to disable Upnp (or IGD, the part of UPNP that lets you open ports), for good reason. It's a protocol that just disables the security you thought you had before. The reason Xboxes need port forwarding in the first place is that IPv4 relies on NAT. The unreliability and unpredictability of NAT means remote devices won't know what ports to talk to or if those ports will even be mapped to the…

UPNP is just fine assuming a secure implementation (some of the early ones were awful, but that doesn't make the concept bad). It doesn't reduce security anywhere near like what is made out. If you already have a device on your network that is compromised and is able to do UPNP requests, then you have a much bigger problem (in a home setting).

But IPv6 doesn't solve the problem at all if all incoming connections are blocked on the firewall - which they have to be for security! You need some protocol for the xbox to be able to tell the firewall to open ports, which doesn't exist. Or users have to manually set the firewall rules, which is the same as port forwarding on NAT from a users perspective (ie impossibly complicated)

You can run multiple xboxes behind NAT right now, they get different ports.

Again, for a non technical user there is no major difference between being behind CGNAT IPv4 (impossible to get incoming connections), and firewalled IPv6 (possible to get incoming connections, but the firewall is too complicated to use so it may as well be impossible). If there was a protocol which would allow devices to open ports on IPv6 firewalls programmatically similar to UPNP it would be entirely different, but there isn't.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that IPv4 is not forward-compatible and therefore there cannot be a protocol that is entirely interoperable. There can only be ones that are somewhat interoperable. And IPv6 has plenty of mechanisms that make things interoperable (NAT64, embedding ipv4 addresses in ipv6, etc.).

What we need is a pure 4 network to be able to talk to a 6 network - that's what it means to be interoperable. Going 6 to 4 is obviously required or otherwise 6 would be a useless protocol to begin with. Anycast routing plus tunnelling is one way to achieve 4 to 6. But the "ngtrans" team didn't accept this a transition plan, nor did they provide an official transition plan for migrating 4 to 6. Basically 6 has been a…

How exactly do you propose this 4 to 6 mechanism to work? How do you fit more than 32-bit of information into the 32-bit destination field of IPv4?

Because that's what's required to make it fully interoperable. Anything else and it's not a pure IPv4 network anymore and you are in the exact same situation as we are with IPv6.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#415

Why should I spend the time and energy to deal with IPv6 when disabling it fix many issues ? The listed advantages are not worth the troubles in my experience.

Increased number of available IP addresses, improved security features, simplified network management, reduced network complexity, and support for new technologies. The adoption of IPv6 will lead to cost savings, improved network performance, and increased scalability. Scalability may not matter in the typical home network, but in an enterprise environment, the cost of up-keeping the network backbone is significant.

Making your computer traceable on the internet is not a security feature but all the contrary, it is a threat to security and privacy.

Cracking and Hacking world is awaiting with open arms IPv6 because a pain in the ass called NAT was removed from the specification, and only a tinny exploitable fence was left for Router's future. Now the enterprise environment will have their needed paid additional security devices with their scalability while the average user at home have to cross fingers for not being the target of a zero day. Tracking Advertisers are also very happy.

Its sad to hear about the supposed reduced network complexity when its needed even an external DNS service for being able to manage your own network at home, lets say your NAS with audiovisual content as mere example, what forces one to create additional secondary real local networks if one don't what to rely in external DNS services for to being able to know the IP of your own device.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#416

Everyone always goes with the "You don't need NAT, everything is globally routable!" argument, as if that's something that anybody wants. Everything on my network is going to go through my firewall anyway. I don't want anything on my network to be globally routable. Of course, this is not a good reason to not use IPv6, don't get me wrong. It's a problem that's easy to overcome, I just think it's not a good way to get…

Routable does not mean reachable. A firewall is perfectly capable of controlling traffic between two routable addresses, without the added burden and complexity of having to translate the traffic to/from a non routable address.

The whitehouse has a public address, everyone knows its address and yet random people can't just walk in through the front door.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#417
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> […] that can exploit it via any other vector. And what are those vector(s)? Besides compromising a machine that is already inside per the above (which can then do scanning / lateral moves), or perhaps physically getting inside the premises (in which case a scanner can be physically installed to examine the network), what attack are you protecting against ? Can you give me a link about an attack that knowing the top…

Just because you've popped a box on the inside doesn't mean you automatically know everything about the network. It doesn't give you a mirrored port on the network switch. It doesn't mean ICMP is enabled, it doesn't automatically tell you what ports are open or what they serve. And any decent security team is going to see your nmap blast in the IDS and kick that box in jail. Seems intellectually dishonest not to ackn…

IPv6 actually makes such attacks more difficult, not less.

An attacker looking to be stealthy is not going to blast the network with nmap...

ARP is broadcast, NDP is solicited node multicast so simply by passively listening on the network you will discover nodes in the same layer 2 segment, with v6 and properly configured switches your passive discovery will be a lot more limited.

Other passive techniques would be monitoring things like DNS, and things the host you've compromised is actively communicating with. This isn't any different regardless of the protocol used.

You can also actively communicate with services like DNS or Active Directory and query information about the network, depending on your level of risk.

Just knowing the in-use IPv6 block is useless, the blocks are massive so even just identifying active hosts in a single known IPv6 block is a lot harder than simply scanning the entire RFC1918 legacy address space.

For active discovery, IPv6 is harder to attack - you can't scan the entire address block looking for hosts. The fact that such scans should be detected is exactly the same for either protocol. You also have to consider response time and what an attacker may be able to achieve before your response kicks in.

IPv6 makes it harder for attackers, not easier.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>simplified network management I keep hearing this, but it doesn’t seem more simple to me. My ISP won’t reserve me a /48, so I can’t control the management ips of devices on my network. The solution is apparently to set up dynamic dns, which I have no interest in doing.

Just split that /64 into smaller /80 subnets. If I were your ISP, I would be upset too. The apparent issue here is that you're falling back to what's familiar- static IP addressing. How about mDNS?

I guess what I meant is that my ISP won’t hand out a stable IPv6 allocation. Ie, my entire address range changes weekly.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#419
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ipv4 with NAT gets you a new "adress"(meaning port) on every single new connection. I don't see IPv6 doing the same thing(it has no clue about connections)

> ipv4 with NAT gets you a new "adress"(meaning port) on every single new connection. No one cares about tracking by port. Folks are tracking by IP(v4) address. I know this first hand because I have my DSL router-modem auto-reboot every night (built-in Asus functionality), and I get all sorts of crazy results for ads: I'm in southern Ontario, as is my ISP, but they service folks in Quebec, and so sometimes I get Yout…

That's not tracking to you specifically, that's geo location so they're just trying to identify the general area for purposes of showing ads.

With IPv6 chances are your ISP has a single large address block, and then they split out parts of that address space to users in ontario and quebec. Unless the ISP publishes details of where they've allocated those blocks, any external site is just guessing.

With legacy IP chances are they have multiple small fragmented blocks, some of which are routed to ontario and some of which are routed to quebec so they're a bit easier to keep track of unless the ISP decides to move them.

Also when you address changes, the legacy address space is probably quite close to full so your previous address is released and probably taken by another customer fairly quickly. The IPv6 space will be much larger, and so recycling occurs far more slowly.

Either way youtube is just guessing, it only knows that the address space belongs to a canadian isp and it has to use the behaviour of whoever used those addresses last. If the previous user set their browser language to french and searched for french sites, youtube will remember that and is more likely to serve you french ads.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no downside to everything to be globally routable. It's completely orthogonal to firewalling. What is the risk you're picturing here? I'm really curious. Features like RFC4941/8981 mean nobody can infer anything about your network from the source addresses they see making requests out if it. If you want to use link-local V6 addresses and NAT to a global one, you can do that. But IMHO that's sacrificing one o…

> There is no downside to everything to be globally routable. Yes there is. I sure as fuck don't want random people from the Internet to know how many devices and what kind populate my home LAN.

How is anyone going to discover that?

You're going to have a minimum of a /64, noone is going to scan that looking for devices.

Even if they do, your firewall is not going to allow the traffic unless you've explicitly configured it to do so.

The only way someone will discover devices, is by analysing outbound traffic you make. Outbound IPv6 traffic will come from randomised addresses so the addressing information is useless. Other things disclosed by the devices (eg user-agent headers on web browsers and other fingerprintable data) are protocol agnostic.

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