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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#411

Post by JoshCole »

panick21_ wrote: post #206
justapassenger wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone have insights on what QA looks like at Tesla for FSD work? Because all of these seem table-stakes before even thinking about releasing the BETA FSD. Tesla is not exactly in love with QA. Especially for FSD. FSD is mainly 2 things: 1. (By far most important) shareholder value creating promise, that's been solved for 6 years according to their CEO. 2. Software engineering research project What FSD is not…

Do you have actual knowlage of Tesla internal QA processes, any kind of source at all? Based on there presentation, they for sure have a whole load of tests, many built directly from real world situation that the car has to handle. They simulate sensor input based on the simulation and check the car does the right thing. They very likely have some internal test drivers and before the software goes public it goes to t…

I strongly feel people ought to have these discussions while consistently citing actual data sources relevant to the discussion.

For example, did you predict, based on the speculation of Tesla being incompetent with regard to safety, that they have the lowest probability of injury scores of any car manufacturer? Because they do.

Did you predict, based on speculation about Elon Musk's incompetence in predicting that self-driving would happen, that there are millions of self-driving miles each quarter? Because there are.

Did you predict, based on speculation about Tesla incompetence in full self-driving, that the probability of accident per mile is lower rather than higher in cars that have self-driving capabilities? Because they do.

I know this sort of view is very controversial on Hacker News, but I still think it is worth stating, because I think people are actually advocating for policies which kill people because they don't actually know the data disagrees with their assumptions.

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#412

Post by Veserv »

rvnx wrote: post #80
apnew wrote: post #64

> The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National…

There are many of such tests in the open. There is even a former Tesla AI engineer that throws objects in front of the car on YouTube, as a demonstration. The results are not glorious at all :| (trying to find the channel back if someone knows). And random public tests too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mnG_Gbxf_w This is a basic safety auto-braking. Just feels very wrong to even accept it goes into release.

You are probably thinking of: https://www.youtube.com/@AIAddict

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#413

Post by MockObject »

taf2 wrote: post #265
jackmott42 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you planning to join a class action lawsuit so you can get your money back?

I've had it do strange stuff too... but I use it regularly in dense traffic it's great for stop and go traffic. the important thing is if you're driving you're driving. I don't turn it on and think oh sweet i can take a nap or read some hacker news posts... I keep my eyes on the road. There are bugs and I don't trust it but I do use it much like I use ChatGPT and the likes...

How is it useful, if it requires such attention?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#414

Post by justapassenger »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #388
panick21_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowlage of Tesla internal QA processes, any kind of source at all? Based on there presentation, they for sure have a whole load of tests, many built directly from real world situation that the car has to handle. They simulate sensor input based on the simulation and check the car does the right thing. They very likely have some internal test drivers and before the software goes public it goes to t…

The person above you has no idea what they’re talking about. There’s literally hundreds of people at Tesla whose job is QA and tools to support QA

And how does that change anything about my statements?

Yeah, they have QA. But for the problem they claim they’re solving (robotaxis) and speed of pushing stuff to customers (on the order of days) it vastly, vastly insufficient. And it lacks any safety lifecycle process regards - again, just look at the timelines. Even if you’re super efficient, you cannot possibly claim you can even such a basic things like proper change management (no, commit message isn’t that) or validation.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#415

Post by dtheodor »

varjag wrote: post #341
dtheodor wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your run of the mill computer program also "operates in enormous parameter spaces that are impossible to meaningfully test for all possible adversarial inputs and degraded outputs".

This is hardly similar as the state of a typical computer program can be meaningfully inspected, allowing both useful insights for adversarial test setups and designing comprehensive formal tests.

Right, if you consider the internal state, it is hardly similar. You talked about black box and QA though. Black box by definition holds the internal state as irrelevant, and QA mostly treats the software it tests as a black box, or in other words the tests are "superficial" as you call it.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#416

Post by winter_blue »

giobox wrote: post #326
CyanLite2 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD Beta still costs $15k just to be part of the beta program. Yes, you have to pay $15k just to apply to the beta program, and you still may not get accepted into the program.

Or 199 dollars + taxes a month - there is a pay as you go option. Not saying this is great, but you can try it for a month for ~200 bucks. This is how I tried FSD beta for a month - certainly wasn't prepared to pay 15k up front. The safety score check stuff is largely gone away today - anyone who pays 200 bucks can click the beta opt in and get it almost straight away now, there is ~zero risk of not getting the beta…

> The safety score check stuff is largely gone away today - anyone who pays 200 bucks can click the beta opt in and get it almost straight away now, there is ~zero risk of not getting the beta if you really want it, live in US or Canada, and are prepared to pay.

Does this recall mean that FSD Beta won't be as widely & publicly available to anyone with FSD anymore?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#417

Post by Doctor_Fegg »

natch wrote: post #199
adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

You are meant to maintain control of the vehicle at all times with the beta. That’s the only way it could be released in its current state. Looking at it as anything other than a beta where you have to maintain control is misunderstanding what it is. Which you are clearly doing. It is absolutely expected to be worse than a drunk teenager in this stage.

I wonder if there’d be so many people eager to pay Tesla $$$ if it were marketed as “Worse Than Drunk Teenager Self Driving”.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#418

Post by reitzensteinm »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #169
rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

This is limited to certain pre mapped roads, under 40 mph and requires a car in front to follow. This in no way compares to Tesla's Autopilot system. Edit (because HN throttling replies): > Mercedes is being responsible about their rollout You can always succeed if you define success. If rolling out something that doesn't do much of anything is success, success? Oh well. Less than 20 people have died related to Autop…

Isn't 40mph a regulatory limit?

Do you have any information that it'll continue to be 40mph even where not required to be?

I wouldn't be surprised in the answer is yes, but I've been paying attention and haven't come across any yet.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#419

Post by saghm »

dtech wrote: post #401
samwillis wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, but the thing is, if an LLM can "hallucinate" and throw a temper tantrum 2001 style (bing in this case), it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"...

They work in completely different ways. There's no reason to assume parallels.

You're right, this is unfair to Bing AI. It hasn't actually harmed anyone yet, despite its threats.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#420

Post by starbase »

alberth wrote: post #271

Dumb question: why would anyone sign-up for a beta program, that could kill you if gone wrong? (maybe people just don't think through ramifications)

It is a dumb question, but that's the best kind.

"could kill you if gone wrong" is nearly every choice in life. The relevant metric is risk of death or other bad outcomes.

Flying in a commercial airliner could kill you if things go wrong. Turns out it's safer than driving the same distance.

Eating food could kill you if things go wrong (severe allergy, choking, poisoning) yet it's far preferable to not eating food.

Similarly, Tesla's ADAS could kill you if things go wrong but the accident rate (as of 2022) is 8x lower than the average car on the road, and 2.5x lower than a Tesla without ADAS engaged.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

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