The strange case of Britain’s demise • Hacker News Board

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#411

Post by alvah » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 4:47 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #232

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Blair was that he lost the right on EU/immigration and lost the left on everything else. Brownites sound good but say nothing specific...often the specific stuff is bad too. I agree with you in that there is a route in the centre, but Labour aren't. The party is fundamentally broken. Starmer isn't it, Reeves isn't a leader, Streeting is a joke. Obviously, they have moved to the centre on immigration…

At this point UK government services don’t need reform, they need funding. Austerity has absolutely crippled everything.

The NHS is the largest employer in Europe. 1.7 million employees for 141,000 beds. I believe it is fundamentally irreformable, but clearly it needs reform.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#412

Post by alvah » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 4:54 AM UTC

"Britain seems trapped in a doom loop of superannuated governments which, after a term or two of charismatic leadership and reformist vim, wind up bereft of talent, sinking in their own mistakes and wracked by backbench rebellions; in office but barely in power"

That's not just Britain, the entire West has this problem. IMO the rise of professional politicians who've never worked outside of politics is a major cause of this problem. Modern politics does not select for the best of the best, it selects for those with a lust for power and control & the ability to camouflage this with a professed desire to serve the public.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#413

Post by ValentineC » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 4:54 AM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #410

Animats wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Israel with proportional representation, every small party has outsized power since every one of them has enough power to vote down the current government by joining hands with the opposition. Now Benjamin Netanyahu is soon to be back in power. He's generally acknowledged to be a crook, but nobody else seems to be able to assemble a governing coalition. He's already been Prime Minister for 15 years.

Yeah, that guy has been around since forever. The only one I can think of that's been in power longer is putin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_state_leaders_...

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#414

Post by blitzar » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 4:56 AM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #62

tobylane wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I missed out the bit where that 3% difference in vote lead to a 93 (out of 650) difference in seats.

Corbyn got 202 MPs in 2019, Blair in his 3rd term got 355 Corbyn wasn't just deeply unpopular across the country outside of student areas. I spoke to life long remainer lib dems in the Tory/Lab marginal seat of Crewe and Nantwich who were voting Tory to stop Corbyn. Across rural areas in Cheshire people were voting Tory because they were scared of Lib Dems backing Corbyn. Due to the way that FPTP works, his concentra…

> I spoke to life long remainer lib dems in the Tory/Lab marginal seat of Crewe and Nantwich who were voting Tory to stop Corbyn.

I spoke to many who similarly voted to stop Corbyn - they were stopping Corbyn because of his vow to reintroduce gas chambers and exterminate every Jew in the land. I am not sure that was his actual policy but many were adamant it was.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#415

Post by nxmnxm99 » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 4:56 AM UTC

alvah wrote: post #412

"Britain seems trapped in a doom loop of superannuated governments which, after a term or two of charismatic leadership and reformist vim, wind up bereft of talent, sinking in their own mistakes and wracked by backbench rebellions; in office but barely in power" That's not just Britain, the entire West has this problem. IMO the rise of professional politicians who've never worked outside of politics is a major cause…

This is why the West is stagnating and the power center of the world has shifted East once more after half a millennia.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#416

Post by solatic » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:03 AM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #365

foolswisdom wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple, because you aren't going to form a coalition with parties radically different than yours, you choose those that are mostly aligned with you. But now any party within the coalition, even a small one, can force the coalition to listen to them, because the alternative is to form a coalition with parties even more at odds.

What are the radical differences between Likud and Yesh Atid? (In fact, they did form a government coalition in 2013, which lasted about two years. And then there was the 2020, where the two biggest parties in that election, Likud and Blue and White (of which Yesh Atid was a major constituent), formed a government. So it happens. I'm not sure the current two biggest parties, Likud and Yesh Atid, have a radical differ…

You're making the common mistake that these parties are about their platforms, not their leaders. It's not so much a difference between Likud and Yesh Atid so much as a difference between Netanyahu and Lapid, with Netanyahu's struggles to avoid a corruption verdict and Lapid's insistence that elected politicians must not continue to serve after indictment.

Lapid and other center-opposition leaders have all indicated a willingness to negotiate with a Likud without Netanyahu at the helm.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#417

Post by csomar » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:03 AM UTC

Quarrelsome wrote: post #227

pifm_guy wrote: post #219

Britain is in a post-empire downfall, and has been for 120 years. If you want to see where it leads, see Portugal which is 50 years further ahead on that path.

I don't think the scale of Empires is anywhere near the same to make the two particularly comparable. Remember that Great Britain effectively bankrolled one side of the money incinerator that was the First Great War alone (at least for the first two years) which somewhat demonstrates the exceptional zenith of its power.

They also don't have the same size. Portugal has around 10million people. Would you say the British empire was x6 times larger than the Portuguese one?

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#418

Post by aragilar » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:05 AM UTC

VK538FY wrote: post #319

culi wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've fully considered the alternatives here. Alternatives like Approval or even RCV (which admittedly has its own issues) don't at all weaken the rural vote here. Approval means all those rural parties can be voted for instead of having to be consolidated and also increases the chance that some city folk will vote for them. RCV allows rural people to vote for the longshot candidate they ACTUALLY wan…

I appreciate your suggestions but would really need to see some simulations to digest the potential effects. Not that my opinion counts for much but it's always good to suggest alternatives when one criticizes. That said, the duopoly isn't always so bad historically. Many cases of individual candidates who broke party lines or walked the fine line. It depends to a great degree on party discipline or the lack thereof.

You could look at Australia (which has multiple "rural" parties), and which uses RCV (called preferential voting here).

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#419

Post by csomar » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:05 AM UTC

asdadsdad wrote: post #343

foobarian wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worse than that, it feels like the end of the exponential part of the massive growth S-curve that started after WW2 with rebuilding, tech breakthroughs, the transistor, electronics, computers, globalization, etc. Now all that is finally in steady state and the structures that built up around the growth are falling in on themselves. People try to blame whichever government is currently in power or whateve…

Agree, and it's sad because indeed Britain in the early 2000s was the coolest place to be. I mean, if they had stayed in the EU it'd still have a lot of its appeal. Now it's just a sad island with tough immigration and not much to offer. London used to be the kind of place young Europeans would head to, without plans. Now not sure whey are people going.

Bali. I'm booking for the first day of the next year; and the average one-night price on AirBnb is $230.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#420

Post by csomar » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:08 AM UTC

ruggeri wrote: post #405

csomar wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was Germany's case for Tunisia's democracy. Tunisia ended up implementing a Proportional Representation system and I believe it's a good and well balanced system. On Paper. Well, democracy in Tunisia imploded and exploded. So, yeah, be careful of things that look good on paper.

Honest question: did Germany have any say in Tunisia's voting system? Wasn't Tunisia a French protectorate? Do you mean more recently than 1956? In any case, Tunisia is not the only country with PR. It's used a lot of places, including Germany (well, MMP, but pretty similar). Like any system it has advantages and disadvantages, but democracy in the Nordics hasn't imploded nor exploded...

> did Germany have any say in Tunisia's voting system? Wasn't Tunisia a French protectorate?

It's different, I think. Germany offered help (along with the EU) and Tunisia(ans) don't know any better so they took up the offer. Plus it was free help and free money. I don't think Germany or the EU had any malicious intentions, I think they truly wanted to help.

But big surprise: Tunisia is not a Nordic country! Apparently, what works there doesn't work here at all.