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Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

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Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#411

First Twitter was going to crash in a week, then it was everyone would flee to Mastodon, now it’s that all the advertisers would leave. Maybe Twitter really didn’t need 7500 people, and maybe having more voices speak is a good thing (there is always block button), and maybe advertisers won’t flee forever. That seems more likely to me than Twitter imploding.

I've dipped into Twitter trending topics a couple times in the last week. Each day it was 100% Alt right, Crypto, an error (like a sentence fragment), or world cup news for top 20 topics. That looks like a disaster to me.

If Twitter was a new app just launched, I would think it was a seriously sketchy back alley and not a town square.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter was previously doing A/B tests. Spaces, communities, downvotes, circles, and even moderation were applied only to a subset of accounts while they actively experimented. The new policy is an objectively less scientific approach to testing functionality than what was occurring before.

It's not like A/B tests approach anything like the rigor that we expect from actual science, though.

Others have addressed the ways in which A/B testing does hew quite closely to the standard of empirical observation under controlled circumstances, with which I largely agree.

Where A/B studies may go wrong in my view is a few other elements:

- A/B studies have difficulty in determining differences based on multiple interacting characteristics. In fairness, so does empirical science, and the principle of "holding all else constant" is a frequent assumption of scientific processes.

- A/B studies face an inherent self-selection / exclusion bias: the participants in this round of A/B testing are those who've not been driven off the project/product from past experiments and design changes. Given that many Web 2.0 companies eventually dance with pushing people right up to the border of tolerance, it's quite possible that A/B testing has a long-term effect of pushing those participants whose tolerance has been exceeded out of the study population entirely. I don't know how large a factor this is, though loud / rage quitters are certainly a prominent (if not necessarily large) cohort. Whether or not they're also influential, or perhaps more importantly when they become influential is another question. Again, this is a fairly common problem with any social experiment, including natural social experiments, see various forms of brain-drain and social flight.

- A/B testing tends to focus on short term changes and behaviours, which may mask longer-term outcomes. This has some overlap with the above, but also with subjects' general response to change. See the classic case of this in the Hawthorne Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect>).

The upshot is that A/B testing can be valid and useful, but that experimental design, particularly in the case of social and psychological experiments, where subject feed back into the study and its methodology itself, is exceptionally thorny.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't solve any of the problems Twitter now has > you have 2000 poorly managed, even more understaffed systems with 2000 different approaches It is not about short-term problem solving. It is about long-term investment in more decentralized social networks. 2000 different approaches is exactly what is needed for "natural selection" to do it job. > are first and foremost human, business, management and social prob…

>2000 different approaches is exactly what is needed for "natural selection" to do it job… The more (and sooner) people jump ship, the better chance we have to test and iterate. I don’t think users are going to participate in these sorts of experiments long term. People are signing up now out of fear and anger and hope but Mastodon still lacks the user base — people for you to follow and people to amplify your posts.…

> I don’t think users are going to participate in these sorts of experiments long term

You are right, not in the mainstream. What I'm talking about is what is already happening in the underground (and also hoping for some right people to join in). This is enough for that "natural selection" work. Don’t you feel the pace of those decentralized new projects every week on HN?

> if people are expected to tolerate.... I see them leaving

Maybe you're right? I said I'm "hoping". Deep inside, I believe this crisis is just a steppingstone (may be an important one ?). At the very least we have sown some seeds in mainstream social networks (like Tumblr's move to federate) and mainstream media (all the mastodon talk). We need more underground work to sort all the stuff you and others are complaining about. The next crisis we will be more ready.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And banned accounts when fringe far right "journalists" complained about them. https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-n...

Ok but groups like the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club are not a trivial account (or frankly even a journalist). They're a radical antifa group who follow people (include government agents) officials around with guns, openly assaulting them, and has been part of deadly riots. It's like the proud boys x2 I also wouldn't call Andy Ngo, a gay asian journalist who's spoken in front of congress, far right. He basically recor…

You have not presented any evidence that any John Brown Gun Club chapters have assaulted or killed anybody.

The Gun Club arms itself to defend against far-right violence and often appears as a security force at protests to protect against expected far-right violence.

To date, Gun Club members have reportedly not engaged anyone with their weapons during one of these protests.

https://www.counterextremism.com/supremacy/john-brown-gun-cl...

Being invited by Republicans to speak before Congress is just more evidence that Andy Ngo is far right, from my perspective.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And banned accounts when fringe far right "journalists" complained about them. https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-n...

First the article says Chad Loder was recently suspended because his name was provided to Musk by far right accounts. Several paragraphs later it backs off and says it might be that he was suspended because he was supposedly on a right wing list of people they were trying to mass report (suddenly this isn’t about Musk any more but the standard reporting mechanism). The evidence for this is an archive.ph snapshot of a…

It is interesting you focus on just one of the banned accounts, glossing over the case of CrimethInc, for example:

In the 14 years that CrimethInc has been on Twitter, the account has never violated Twitter policies and has never been suspended. This changed last week after a Twitter exchange between Musk and Ngo.

Ngo asked Musk to suspend the CrimethInc account, calling it an “Antifa collective” and falsely claiming the group had “claimed a number of attacks.” Within hours of Ngo’s request to Musk, and without citing any specific violations of policies, Twitter suspended the @crimethinc account.

You can call this piece "a tissue of insinuations", but the evidence, taken together, is quite damning. A pattern emerges. At least for anyone who does not have tissues in their ears.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, if I may ask, how do you have an idea of what it was before?

I was a lurker before, I read twitter all the time with out an account. It as a pain because they kept trying to force you to create an account so I kept having to find ways around their account signup walls which was fun...

What's funny is they no longer try to force you to create an account. I used to use nitter.net to browse someone's history, but now I can do it on Twitter apparently with no restrictions.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First the article says Chad Loder was recently suspended because his name was provided to Musk by far right accounts. Several paragraphs later it backs off and says it might be that he was suspended because he was supposedly on a right wing list of people they were trying to mass report (suddenly this isn’t about Musk any more but the standard reporting mechanism). The evidence for this is an archive.ph snapshot of a…

It is interesting you focus on just one of the banned accounts, glossing over the case of CrimethInc, for example: In the 14 years that CrimethInc has been on Twitter, the account has never violated Twitter policies and has never been suspended. This changed last week after a Twitter exchange between Musk and Ngo. Ngo asked Musk to suspend the CrimethInc account, calling it an “Antifa collective” and falsely claiming…

Ya I looked at their lead example and the one they talk about the most and they made serious errors. I see the CrimeInc case has slightly more evidence, like at least we know they asked for them to be banned.

So yes, in addition to clearly misreporting and making misleading and false statements about their lead example Loder they seem to have other examples where there is circumstantial (but zero actual) evidence Musk may have done something.

Personally I like much more rigorous journalism than this even when it’s about people like Musk who I dislike.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the fact that no-one was getting banned merely for having an option or for their actions outside of the Twitter platform. They were banned for continuously violating the terms of service e.g. inciting violence, racist or xenophobic content, doxxing etc. And what happened here is that those left-wing accounts were banned without any such violation i.e. it was purely arbitrary and the very thing you cla…

What's odd to me is if this question came up a few months ago we would see lots of "it's a private platform" and "freedom of association" comments that aren't as prevalent all the sudden. Those left wing people that were banned, very likey supported the system that just got them banned.

People aren't saying that Twitter cannot ban these people. There is no hypocrisy here. People are saying that Twitter is being run badly.

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing a lot of things. The right-wingers that got banned presumably broke one of Twitter's rules - maybe they said "I wish someone would shoot (insert politician they don't like here)". Even if you take "pre-Musk Twitter had a left wing bias" as granted, that doesn't mean the right-wingers were wrongfully banned. >But banning antifa-accounts, that is accounts held by people taking part in month long riots an…

> their rhetoric is inherently more violent[0] in ways that were easier to detect. Do you have any evidence for this generalization? The only overt violent threats I’ve seen on Twitter are men encouraging rape and murder of JK Rowling and other supporters of women’s rights. I don’t know if they’re “right wing” or not, but their surrounding rhetoric is what’s usually associated loosely with the “left”. But surely this…

Definitely not doing the "she's not transphobic, really" argument any favors here by calling transwomen "men."

Re: Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

#420
post #288

I do not see how they can say they still prioritize broad safety when there is reportedly only one person left on the child safety team.

Well, whatever the team was doing before, it seems like their effectiveness has increased quite a bit without the missing team members. In the past, exploitation victims had to literally sue Twitter to take down explicit material, because a "review" could not "find a violation of [their] policies" [1]. Now "the three biggest hashtags used by child abusers selling child sexual abuse material on Twitter have virtually…

It should be noted that planning to take down those hashtags started months ago, and may not be to Elon's credit here.
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