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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#411

Post by astrange »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #359
outside1234 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why you make 50% less by the way. Not dumping on the laws, which I think are great, and are probably worth it overall, but there is a cost.

Depends, America is a good place for the upper middle class and a paradise for millionaires. The rest of society-the majority lest we forget- is not so well off.

It's about the bottom 10th percentile in the US that's worse off. The American middle class (median household) is better off than almost any other country, and that's including healthcare costs. We're so rich it makes up for all our other problems!

https://twitter.com/CPopeHC/status/1466794872648650752

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:best,fl_pr...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Better_Life_Index#2020

I think a more interesting point is that people in the UK and Japan specifically are poorer than you'd think they are. And they don't have working clothes dryers either.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#412

Post by Aeolun »

sebazzz wrote: post #36

I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.

I do not, since they invariably flee back to the US before ponying up anything they deem unreasonable.

Coming from the ‘land of the free’ that’s basically anything.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#413

Post by maxerickson »

ineedasername wrote: post #80

he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.

"Corrective action" is quality system jargon.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#414

Post by Aeolun »

testfoobar wrote: post #396
geek_at wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European in general. My wife works for a biotech company in Austria which was recently aquired by an american company and it's so funny to hear about their efforts to adapt to EU law and culture. Most of their training material is still unchanged from their US branch so there are things they list as benefits for all employees like - 3 Weeks paid vacation (we get 5 by law) - Health insurance (you know the drill) - 3 w…

In contrast, the extra capital buffer required to maintain such benefits directly reduces the amount of risk a startup business can take. Starting a risky venture in the EU vs the US seems like starting with an immediate financial drag. Stability for workers is achieved in part by forcing companies to lower the risk they can take.

If that risk comes at the expense of the workers, then yes.

Tbh, it’s just a cost of doing business in the Netherlands.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#415

Post by withinboredom »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #404
withinboredom wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude was getting paid 70k in the Netherlands. That’s a pretty big chunk of change. Not “low paid” work at all…

That's my exact point, it is unlikely that he was actually a telemarketer and the article is probably wrong. Reread my posts

Ah, my mistake. I thought you were saying he must not have been paid well because he was a telemarketer. And I agree with you.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#416

Post by anigbrowl »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #397
anigbrowl wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how choice of law works. If you are operating a business in jurisdiction A and open a branch in jurisdiction B, you have a nexus to jurisdiction B and can't say your branch exists under the legal umbrella of jurisdiction A. Of course, you can assert that your customer and employment contracts are under the law of jurisdiction A, but such assertions don't magically trump statutory law. Contractual provision…

He already sued and won in jurisdiction B. The money is in jurisdiction A. No banks and police in jurisdiction A will honor a legal document from jurisdiction B. This leaves you to the situation described above. The best option is to take the decision from jurisdiction B into a new court proceeding and jurisdiction A and ask them to honor it with a local court order in A. They may or they may not. Even within the Uni…

No banks and police in jurisdiction A will honor a legal document from jurisdiction B.

Except that that is often not the case, because of things like federalism, treaties and so on. Anyway, you're missing the point; you're now talking about a judgement from jurisdiction B, whereas earlier you were arguing that the rules from jurisdiction A could apply in jurisdiction B.

If a plaintiff goes to jurisdiction A with a judgement from jurisdiction B (eg pursuing the money as you suggested), you wouldn't retry the case under the rules of jurisdiction A. The reason is that the defendant (in this case the company headquartered in Florida qua jurisdiction A) agreed to the rules of the Netherlands (qua jurisdiction B) when it filed to get a business license there.

It would be different if a Dutch worker had sought employment with a company in Florida, and then complained when he didn't like the employment standards he found himself subjected to. It's the fact that the company committed itself to NL/EU law when opening a subsidiary there that subjects them to its judgments. The issue of the business license imposes conditions upon its beneficiary within the scope of its use.

Suppose something is legal your jurisdiction but not in mine. While you are in your jurisdiction, I can't sue or prosecute you for doing The Thing there. But if you come to my jurisdiction, do The Thing, and then return to your own, you can't shake off that liability because you don't get to bring your legal environment with you. The only exception I can think of offhand is with international diplomats, who get quasi-immunity because they are formally representing a different country, and whose embassies/consulates are allowed to operate under the law of their home rather than host countries.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#417

Post by Aeolun »

unity1001 wrote: post #256
outside1234 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why you make 50% less by the way. Not dumping on the laws, which I think are great, and are probably worth it overall, but there is a cost.

> Which is why you make 50% less by the way They make 50% less. And they don't have to pay $1000 per head for private insurance, more for other insurance, $3000/month for being able to be a roommate in a 30 m2 apartment. Also they have disability, reasonable retirement, paid vacations and everything that are pretty much nonexistent for American employees.

Yeah, so we still come out about $1000/month behind after the salaries.

For a software engineer, I’m not sure if the Netherlands makes sense. For everyone else, I’m almost certain it does.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#418

Post by evilduck »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #313
skeeter2020 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it removes some of the stigma Stigma around being on a corrective performance plan should be removed?

I guess it depends on whether your goal is to improve performance, or punish and humiliate people BTW: If anyone finds themselves on any sort of "performance improvement plan", do the BARE MINIMUM to not get fired outright. Ideally go to a therapist, talk about how stressed out you are and how fucked your situation is, and get an official FMLA (legally protected leave of absence). That'll give you some time to relax…

I don't see the benefit of this strategy TBH. At best this tactic just drags out how long you can claim an employment dates with an employer but delays any future unemployment claim you could make until once fired and drags down everyone's opinion of you for abusing a legal protection for medical issues because your job performance was lacking. From an ethical standpoint, why not just lie about the situation to your future prospective employers and cut out wasting a therapist's time?

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#419

Post by BenjiWiebe »

astrange wrote: post #401
badpun wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for fire services monthly, like water instead of having it obfuscated in general taxation. I prefer user fees not taxation. That would have to be mandatory service though (remember, firemen can perform inspections, fine people etc. - they're not there just for fighting fires), at which point it's just simpler to pay for that through taxes.

Firemen mostly don't fight fires. We've decided to send them out on every ambulance call just in case, so they do have a lot of work, but it's not clear if they're adding anything or if it's busywork. (Which isn’t to say we should make them work less, but we should get them smaller trucks like other countries have.)

That's not the way it is everywhere. I'm a volunteer firefighter and I'd say at least 19 times out of 20 my calls are for a fire. The other occasions would be traffic control at an accident or assisting EMTs with lifting a person.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#420

Post by BenjiWiebe »

kube-system wrote: post #310
croes wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like paying schools from taxes and never have kids, or paying fire fighters and your house never burns. It's called society.

> paying fire fighters Which the vast majority of America doesn’t do either.

A lot of those that don't pay the firefighters still pay the fire department. Volunteer fire departments are usually tax funded.
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