Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions • Hacker News Board

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#411

Post by adrianN » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #401

adrianN wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a while to spin up production. It also takes a while to find and train a sufficient number of people to can install them. It also takes a while to increase the supply of electricity so that we have enough power for tens of millions of heat pumps running all winter.

> It also takes a while to increase the supply of electricity so that we have enough power for tens of millions of heat pumps running all winter. The same therm of natural gas that would have been burned in a domestic gas boiler, if burned in a modern combined cycle gas electricity plant, can provide 2-3X the amount of domestic heat via heat pumps even in the coldest conditions. In shoulder seasons it's more like 3-4…

Of course heat pumps are great, but right now the gas is burned in millions of homes. We still need to build the capacity to burn about a third of that gas in combined cycle plants, we don't have them lying around idle.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#412

Post by OOD » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #389

OOD wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>America went basically all out trying to stop Vietnam, then one of the poorest countries on earth, and got nowhere. This is ahistorical. The US in no way, shape, or form when "all out" trying to stop North Vietnam. It was a poor country, but it was heavily armed and resupplied by the USSR and China, including leveraging some of the newest fighter jets, SAMs, etc. the USSR had to offer.

They burned the entirety of the country to the ground. Vietnam's neighbors were absolutely destroyed by the US. Laos is the most bombed country in world history due to the US trying to stop Vietnam. What would be considered "all out" if not dropping the most bombs in human history, and double the amount of WW2? There is no higher level.

>They burned the entirety of the country to the ground.

Categorically false. There were huge swaths of Vietnam that were off limits to bombing.

>Laos is the most bombed country in world history due to the US trying to stop Vietnam.

Yes, with a fraction of the warplanes, airmen, etc. due to advances in technology like strategic bombers and cluster weapons. The overall air efforts are incomparable to what transpired in WWII.

>What would be considered "all out" if not dropping the most bombs in human history, and double the amount of WW2?

If only there was a term to encapsulate such a concept...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

>There is no higher level.

There absolutely is a higher level. Google what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki near the end of WWII.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#413

Post by sorenjan » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 9:35 PM UTC

tomputer wrote: post #387

adrianN wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Germany kept its nuclear plants it would still be almost as dependent on Russian gas as it is today. Homes aren't heated with nuclear power, they're heated with gas. Industrial processes don't run on nuclear power either, they run on gas. Germany doesn't produce a lot of its electricity with gas turbines.

> Homes aren't heated with nuclear power, they're heated with gas. Industrial processes don't run on nuclear power either, they run on gas. I'm glad that there are still people who understand this. In the Netherlands 90% of the homes[1] still run on natural gas and that's not something we can "simply" replace. It is possible and will eventually happen but it will take years if not decades. And that's just homes in th…

The switch should have started years or decades ago. If 90% finds it economically beneficial to keep using fossil fuels for heat the economic incentives are faulty and needs to be updated to move to other alternatives. Heat pumps, bio fuel, waste heat from industry, there are probably plenty of other sources. And of course, energy management, with well insulated houses.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#414

Post by _kbh_ » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 11:30 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #406

btilly wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not even be attempting to discuss this in good faith. You attribute ridiculous statements to me, such as that the breakaway republics do not exist, and there was universal support in Ukraine for Euromaiden, just so you have something to argue against. You throw complex topics such as the Crimea referendum out there. (For the record, the 97% support that Russia claimed is clearly false, but a majority support…

There is no sense in continuing to discuss it. I've made may point. I wish the best for the Ukrainians. But from what I see they might be in even worse trouble then I had thought. We might be as well. There is no genocide (yet anyway and hopefully ever). Please stop using hyperbole. It does your point no favors.

> But from what I see they might be in even worse trouble then I had thought. We might be as well

Whilst it’s obviously not all rainbows and sunshine for the Ukrainians you really refuse to admit that it only took 4 HIMARS to slam Russian logistics. 30 ammo depots and command and control points have been vaporised in a couple of weeks, and Russia has no counter.

> There is no genocide (yet anyway and hopefully ever). Please stop using hyperbole. It does your point no favors.

You can try and redefine the word genocide all you want, but that does not change the fact that the Russians are committing genocide in Ukraine per them UN definition of the word.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#415

Post by SnowHill9902 » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 11:41 PM UTC

BenoitP wrote: post #394

londons_explore wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[1]. https://www.ge.com/gas-power/products/gas-turbines/7e > Its multiple-fuel combustion system allows switching from one fuel to another while running under load. Note that gas turbines are very flexible with fuels because it's a continuous combustion process and done at very high temperatures. That means you don't care about flamefronts, knocking, octane figures, etc. All that matters is that whatever you burn end…

TIL. Well, color me surprised. I even found a source mentioning crude oil: > Oils: Includes crudes and other refined residuals that are heated to acceptable levels to enable the needed viscosity for gas turbine combustion. https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower-new/global/en_US/down...

They are selling you a turbine. Of course they’ll make coffee for you if you wish.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#416

Post by TMWNN » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 12:14 AM UTC

_ph_ wrote: post #391

rmbyrro wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea why you're bringing up Godwin's law here, to be honest...

Not? There is no doubt, that even Hitler every now and then did something right. But of course that doesn't excuse him from being the Monster he was and all the crimes he was responsible for.

By saying "not wanting to invoke Godwin's Law", and by the above comment, you are saying that Trump = Hitler.

It is sad to see a /r/redditmoment on Hacker News.

I'll reword rmbyrro's comment in another way. Trump was right, and the German envoys laughing at him on camera (including Heiko Maas, the foreign minister), was wrong, on the biggest German blunder in 80 years. Just in July alone we've had

a German minister stating that becoming dependent on Russian gas was a "grievous mistake", and that his country is begging (yes, begging) for turbines from Canada "with a heavy heart"

* His government stating that entire industries might "collapse"

* Rationing of gas announced

* Local municipalities planning warm buildings that those without heat in their homes can visit during the winter

Again, this is the greatest German catastrophe in 80 years. It is an existential threat to the German (and, thus, European) economy and nation. It is also 100% self-inflicted. You know this.

Instead of acknowledging that Trump was right on this issue, people like you can only resort to some variant of "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" | "Trump = Hitler and even Hitler every now and then did something right" | etc., etc.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#417

Post by theplumber » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 12:28 AM UTC

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #309

theplumber wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so wrong helping a neighbour? That reduces the energy costs for everyone around the world not only Italy.

I'd feel the same way if my neighbor texted me and informed me that he was making a withdrawal from my bank account to go to a nice dinner, when I was staying in for the night to save money. Being subject to taxation by foreign bureaucrats who then decide where to bestow lavish gifts sounds like nightmare fuel

Increasing the energy efficiency is not exactly a lavish gift. Maybe some materialls that went into the project were even manufactured/provided by "you".

Somehow you see your neighbour a "foreigner" that eats your dinner and steals your money! You are not a nice guy.

Without cooperation you can't acomplish much as an individal human being nor as an individual country(bigger or smaller).

Maybe your neighbour is already helping you with cheaper food or whatever he is producing since his energy bill is now lower.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#418

Post by theplumber » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 12:44 AM UTC

dpratt wrote: post #385

theplumber wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so wrong helping a neighbour? That reduces the energy costs for everyone around the world not only Italy.

You’re not “helping a neighbor” - this analogy is flawed. It’d be more correct to say “a third party with incentives that are entirely unrelated to the matter showed up at my home, placed a gun to my head and demanded I transfer a third of my checking account to him. He then took this money and used it to curry favor from another party by distributing it to his friends to do some repairs and improvements on the home…

What makes him a 3rd party instead of your neighbour? If he lives near your home, you trade to with him, visit him, exchange goods and fix regional issues and even try to global issues, isn't it a good neighbour? Helping him may prove wise. I doubt there was any gun involved. I suspect a more sensible approach that involved cooperation and negotiation. Italy is the third-largest net contributor to the budget of the European Union so I don't see what made you think the deal is so one-sided.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#419

Post by theplumber » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 12:49 AM UTC

dpratt wrote: post #385

theplumber wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so wrong helping a neighbour? That reduces the energy costs for everyone around the world not only Italy.

You’re not “helping a neighbor” - this analogy is flawed. It’d be more correct to say “a third party with incentives that are entirely unrelated to the matter showed up at my home, placed a gun to my head and demanded I transfer a third of my checking account to him. He then took this money and used it to curry favor from another party by distributing it to his friends to do some repairs and improvements on the home…

What makes him a 3rd party instead of your neighbour? If he lives near your home, you trade to with him, visit him, exchange goods and fix regional issues and even try to global issues, isn't it a good neighbour? Helping him may prove wise. I doubt there was any gun involved. I suspect a more sensible approach that involved cooperation and negotiation. Italy is the third-largest net contributor to the budget of the European Union so I don't see what made you think the deal is so one-sided. Now it has more access to gas so it may share some. This is precisly why it's good to have close relationships with your neighbours.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#420

Post by grapeskin » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:44 AM UTC

OOD wrote: post #412

grapeskin wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They burned the entirety of the country to the ground. Vietnam's neighbors were absolutely destroyed by the US. Laos is the most bombed country in world history due to the US trying to stop Vietnam. What would be considered "all out" if not dropping the most bombs in human history, and double the amount of WW2? There is no higher level.

>They burned the entirety of the country to the ground. Categorically false. There were huge swaths of Vietnam that were off limits to bombing. >Laos is the most bombed country in world history due to the US trying to stop Vietnam. Yes, with a fraction of the warplanes, airmen, etc. due to advances in technology like strategic bombers and cluster weapons. The overall air efforts are incomparable to what transpired in…

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are far smaller than what happened to Vietnam.

I live not far from there. Seen the range of the damage first hand. The extent of the damage in SE asia is far larger and people are still de-mining the area.

And civilian deaths were colossal in Vietnam. Rapes and massacres (that includes by Americans, yes) certainly weren’t just directed at combatants. Just because American deaths were low doesn’t mean the US didn’t go all out on obliterating the country unlike anything they’ve done before.

Btw, the fire bombings in Japan were far more disastrous than the nuclear weapons. I suggest you Google them. The nuclear weapons were more of a major spectacle. Vietnams bombings exceed even the Japanese fire bombings, both of which destroyed their entire countries. The napalm and agent orange attacks most certainly weren’t fine tuned either and had massive effects on Vietnamese civilians—lasting even to today. Burning and poisoning the earth will do that.