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One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

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Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#411
post #409
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can "hold themselves" for not a week but for months. But to be forced to hold oneself for even one hour is something I don't take so kindly.

Oh ofc, one should never take such a thing so kindly, only the Muslims in the west should respect the cultures and the traditions and learn religious tolerance. weird how the westerners actually don't tolerate others and it's you either agree with me or you're an enemy sort of attitude. I thought this attitude usually stems only from these hateful religious zealots who refuse to "integrate" or "tolerate" others.

Westerners have problems with themselves being forced to do things they don't want.

Muslims have problems with others eating pork or having premarital sex. Or how MAGA people and Muslims both have problems with others being gay or lesbian.

Westerners don't force immigrants Muslims or others Muslims to have pre-marital sex, but Muslims force Westerners to not have pre-marital sex.

Westerners will tolerate or won't pay attention at all if Muslims or whatever other group are abstaining from pre-marital sex, but Muslims won't tolerate Westerners having pre-marital sex.

The sole focus is on living and letting live, and not forcing anything on others.

Liberalism is about tolerating people different from you. And it should go both ways.

(By Muslims, here, I mean, practising, Sunnah abiding, conservative Muslims. I do not mean to pigeonhole.)

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#412
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if a man travelled to USA with a 10 year old wife he could end up in prison for decades, while in many cultures such an arrangement is normal and accepted. This isn't about whether or not to wear shoes indoors or not. It's not about regional cultural quirks, but about fundamental human rights. What actually constitutes fundamental human rights depends on the framework, but the correct one (and importantly the one F…

Who defines "fundamental human rights". I think once you start poking, you'll easily see that such a definition is frail and subjective.

> Who defines "fundamental human rights".

The United Nations do. Why?

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#413
post #332
post #9

https://gctpnews.org/qatar-2022-world-cup-death-toll/ "The name of the current [migrant worker employment] system is kafala, a system forcing all migrants to be sponsored and subsequently tied to an employer. The kafala system has been frequently described as modern day slavery due to its exploitative nature. This employer controls housing, wages, travel, and the well being of each employee." "[...] an estimated 4,00…

Qatar is a terrible place, but I'm not sure the math checks out in that article. Google tells me that the population of Qatar is 2.881 million. If 90% of that is foreign workers, that's 2.593 million foreign workers. The timespan for those 4000 deaths in your link is not given. I'd guess it is over several years since the construction projects for the World Cup are taking place over several years, but let's put them…

Thanks for scrutinizing the numbers.

tl;dr: It could be that the fatality estimates aren't well made; supporting the 2022 FIFA World Cup in Qatar, however, supports well-documented abusive work conditions of foreign workers.

I've tried to dig up some sources on the numbers.

The 4000 deaths estimate was originally made in the ITUC Special Report [1] from 2013-2014, based on how many foreign workers from certain countries where numbers were available. This report mentions "These cases documented by our legal team, show the serious abuses of 1.4 million migrant workers in Qatar."

I don't know if they mean that only 1.4 million of 2.6 million migrant workers are abused, or if they assume different base numbers. I also don't know how they reach the number 4000, but on page 15 of the report you can see that they claim that this number is connected to the construction of the one dozen stadiums for the world cup, since they compare the number 4000 to numbers for similar sporting events in the past where fatalities range 0-40. (0 is London in 2012, 40 is Athens in 2004.)

The report does not spend a lot of time justifying the 4000 deaths estimate, but a Washington Post article from 2015 [3] mentions another report from 2015 by Engineers Against Poverty [2] (404s, fetched from archive.org) that reads:

> Overall, a report commissioned by the Qatari government shows 964 deaths of migrants from India, Nepal and Bangladesh in 2012 and 2013.

Subsequently, the number 4000 was controversial and was estimated both as high as 6500 in 2021 [4] (still only for certain countries where numbers were available), and as low as 3 if you ask FIFA.

Interestingly, BBC was thrown in jail for reporting on this. [5] Can't have all those fake news.

Maybe you're right and there isn't an unusual amount of deaths in Qatar. Maybe there is, and the numbers don't add up. Maybe they don't add up because they're super imprecise, and maybe they don't because they didn't account for statistical factors such as average deaths in construction work world-wide.

[1]: https://www.ituc-csi.org/IMG/pdf/the_case_against_qatar_en_w... [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20151024015052/http://www.engine... [3]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/27/a-bod... [4]: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/r... [5]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32775563

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#414
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1B sponsors don’t hold your passport.

I’ve always wondered, what does “holding a passport” entail? Can’t you just go to your embassy and make a new passport as if you’ve lost the old one? How can some other guy holding your documents make you a slave unable to leave if you want?

Another poster in this thread suggested¹ that there must be some degree of collusion with the migrant worker’s home state(s) for this practice to be widespread.

It’s possible that if they try to obtain a new password from their embassy or consul that they’re told they should retrieve their original one from their “employer”. They may have to prove it was lost or stolen by filling out an official police form – which would likely be a criminal offence if done so knowing that the passport was not lost. This is all conjecture: I’m imagining how there could be rules that appear to be fair on the surface but are actually enforced in such a way as to unfairly restrict the human rights/freedom of the worker.

¹ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31834976

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#415
post #411
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh ofc, one should never take such a thing so kindly, only the Muslims in the west should respect the cultures and the traditions and learn religious tolerance. weird how the westerners actually don't tolerate others and it's you either agree with me or you're an enemy sort of attitude. I thought this attitude usually stems only from these hateful religious zealots who refuse to "integrate" or "tolerate" others.

Westerners have problems with themselves being forced to do things they don't want. Muslims have problems with others eating pork or having premarital sex. Or how MAGA people and Muslims both have problems with others being gay or lesbian. Westerners don't force immigrants Muslims or others Muslims to have pre-marital sex, but Muslims force Westerners to not have pre-marital sex. Westerners will tolerate or won't pay…

> Liberalism is about tolerating people different from you. And it should go both ways.

No it should not, Islam isn't liberal, nor it is some conservative nationalistic ideology. It's a religion, a strict one.

When people tolerate your set of ideas about life you should tolerate theirs too, unless you'd be fine with Muslims pushing Islam down your throat in your country, or well do you accept allowing Muslims to marry 4 women in your country? It's all done with consent tho, nothing is forced really, so will you support that? it's personal for us, is it not? I accept to be properly executed by the terms specified in Islam if I commit intentional -ps. first degree- murder, and If for any reason I do that to a Muslim his family might rightfully ask for me to be executed, and if they end up not accepting money or forgiving me, who are you ( by your own standards ) to step in and tell me and them that this is wrong? by what logic will you do that? that if you actually care to be consistent here and go to the fullest with the "it's personal" thing.

Will you support allowing Muslims in your country to practice sharia law? including public executions for murderers, kidnappers etc? as far as the majority of them agree and ask for that? isn't this how democracy basically works? isn't this their "personal preference" for a ruling model as a group of people? or do you want to "STOP THEM" from getting their rights which they will all give consent to and agree on?

there is no such thing as "personal" because society is..? you guessed, yes, people, any sexual relationship outside Islam is forbidden, you disagree? feel free to leave or not to come, you don't have any right to bend the rules or force people to accept your ideas unless we have the same right to bend your rules in your own country, which is apparently not the case, if you plan on bringing Kamala Harris or any such figure such as any gay / feminist selfproclaimed Muslim, please don't.

Muslims aren't fond of living in a police state, there are actual recommendations against spying and doxxing or intentionally policing people to punish them, and originally if you admit a sin in the court and ask to be punished the actual response from the judge should be to refuse punishing you unless you keep asking 3 times afaik.

I am not an expert so take my word with a grain of salt, I might be wrong about some of the details but the general idea is how it should be.

And that is about the matters ( sins ) between people and God, hence when it's not related to hurting others.

That is the rule for the Muslims, for the nonMuslims I am not sure. But my point is, liberalism might make sense to you, for me, and lots of other people, secularism doesn't make any sense, unless you can come up with a reasonable explanation for how the universe was created without an intelligent creator, and any theory that would say it came out of nowhere, it makes no sense to me, yet I don't think I should force my ideology on you, you on the other hand, want to either force your ideology onto others or call them names.

once I can have all my sharia rights preserved in the USA or the west because I am a Muslim and that is my right, I will support LGBTQ+ rights in Islamic countries ( just a metaphor to state I will never do same as the USA or any secular state will never give the Muslims any rights besides of what they decide to be their rights ).

We also have the right to decide what rights the LGBTQ+ get and which rights they don't, or do we not? Because you think you're the only one entitled to do that?

Hope this clarifies the situation.

[ Edit ]: Sorry for the text-wall, I hate doing that but I had to.

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#416
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As there's no such thing as "life partners" in sharia law.

It seemed clear they were saying common law marriages (assumed after a period of time) aren't respected there.

Actually I meant it as in "partners for life", i.e. the idea that 2 people can partner up and be loyal and faithful to each other orthogonally to the lawful status of the relationship.

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#417
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such laws have some far-fetched, surprising (at least for Westerners) and very creepy consequences. I've read a story about a Swedish girl that had been date-raped while staying on one of Gulf states. Having been used to European legal standards, she reported this incident to the police, only to find out that not only her case was dismissed, but she was found guilty of extramarital affair. Creepy as hell.

Excuse me but this is laughable, the logic not the case, I am sorry for the girl who've been through this but corruption exists everywhere and you're coming for far-fetched conclusions based on hearsay. Pro lgbtq+ laws have far worse consequences. A trans sexually assaulted an American man's daughter in the school bath then they triggered the dad in the court and when he couldn't take it anymore they accused him of D…

I think that's called "whataboutism".

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#418
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me but this is laughable, the logic not the case, I am sorry for the girl who've been through this but corruption exists everywhere and you're coming for far-fetched conclusions based on hearsay. Pro lgbtq+ laws have far worse consequences. A trans sexually assaulted an American man's daughter in the school bath then they triggered the dad in the court and when he couldn't take it anymore they accused him of D…

I think that's called "whataboutism".

Yes it probably is, but I don't think it's bad in this context because I am not trying to gaslight anyone I am trying to give a sight on the other side.

You mentioned one story, and I will take it for granted, yes laws can be abused, don't date in Qatar, you can go out, have fun, go on trips etc. But don't expect them to change their laws for you, unless I can expect your country to change their laws to allow me to practice my religion to the fullest.

By the way, a rapist can face execution if he did it under the threat of a gun / knife, if not he's supposed to get 80 / 100 lashes iirc. But also getting out half-naked, dating, staying in a room alone with a female isn't allowed either. That is under Sharia rule ( which doesn't exist nowadays ), not sure about the laws in Qatar.

Once I see the west supporting and cheering a man with 4 obeying, covered up wives and calling anyone who disagrees Islamophobic and any player who decides not to support that idea will be considered to be sanctioned like what happened to Idrissa Gueye when he refused to show support for LGBTQ+, I will support the LGBTQ+ rights (neither will ever happen).

And no, you can't force women into marriage and they can ask for divorce.

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#419
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who defines "fundamental human rights". I think once you start poking, you'll easily see that such a definition is frail and subjective.

> Who defines "fundamental human rights". The United Nations do. Why?

Why do I (or anyone) have to abide by what the UN says?

Re: One-night stands will be illegal at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar

#420
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who defines "fundamental human rights". The United Nations do. Why?

Why do I (or anyone) have to abide by what the UN says?

Because what UN says is voted by member countries and (partly) incorporated into their laws.
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