CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders • Hacker News Board

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#411

Post by mullingitover » Wed, May 04, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

niij wrote: post #407

mullingitover wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stealing/nationalizing property, even for a year, results in higher costs to do business in the future due to the assumed risk. It's a good thing that's not what they did , then. Making landlords wait to be paid for a limited time is not the same thing as "stealing," and furthermore there were billions upon billions in subsidies passed around to mitigate the effects of this very reasonable measure. It's telling tha…

> Making landlords wait to be paid for a limit time is not the same thing as "stealing," They weren't being paid, that's the whole issue. If they were then an eviction moratorium wouldn't have mattered. > furthermore there were billions upon billions in subsidies passed around to mitigate the effects of this very reasonable measure Are government subsidies to corporations something you're supporting here? > It's tell…

They were eventually paid. Source: my friend who is a landlord and was not adversely impacted at all in the pandemic.

> Are government subsidies to corporations something you're supporting here?

Actually, in the case I have direct knowledge of, this was direct subsidies to renters (via the Emergency Rental Assistance Program), who then repaid their landlords.

> If you want an economic system where property rights are ignored or where the government wholesale manages the economy then just come out and say it.

I believe we could have an economic system that is so rigid and inflexible that it can't respond sensibly to a crisis and instead forces society into a death spiral to protect capital, but that we're wiser than that.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#412

Post by niij » Wed, May 04, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #411

niij wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making landlords wait to be paid for a limit time is not the same thing as "stealing," They weren't being paid, that's the whole issue. If they were then an eviction moratorium wouldn't have mattered. > furthermore there were billions upon billions in subsidies passed around to mitigate the effects of this very reasonable measure Are government subsidies to corporations something you're supporting here? > It's tell…

They were eventually paid. Source: my friend who is a landlord and was not adversely impacted at all in the pandemic. > Are government subsidies to corporations something you're supporting here? Actually, in the case I have direct knowledge of, this was direct subsidies to renters (via the Emergency Rental Assistance Program), who then repaid their landlords. > If you want an economic system where property rights are…

> They were eventually paid

By whom? My understanding of the situation was that landlords did not get a subsidy to make up for lost rents or being unable to evict non-paying tenants. Back-rent would be nice, but is not likely, especially with up to 12 months worth.

> I believe we could have an economic system that is so rigid and inflexible that it can't respond sensibly to a crisis and instead forces society into a death spiral to protect capital, but that we're wiser than that.

Well if that's the only choice here, then you made a pretty good argument for it.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#413

Post by chaps » Wed, May 04, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #404

chaps wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is absolutely related to data privacy and I'm not sure why you think otherwise, let alone why you think I'm interested in spreading disease (seriously, what.). At a practical level, one of my bigger concerns is that they've very likely made it possible to FOIA for the location information they bought.

The data couldnt be foiaed because it’s not the government’s. Anyway, someone could just buy it direct anyway. This is why I don’t understand your concerns. You start off freaking out about the public health officials having widely available location data, and keep harping about the government, but never once focusing on the actual data collection by private entities. Come on. Do you really think Foursquare is HIPPA…

1. That's not really how FOIA works.

2. It's spelled HIPAA.

3. Foursquare isn't bound by HIPAA because they're not a covered entity, unlike the CDC.

4. Believe me, I'm livid about the selling and collection by private entities.

5. I'm only bringing up the FOIA side of things in an attempt to highlight something that you might not have considered. Judging by your misunderstanding of HIPAA and FOIA, it seems that you could stand to consider more.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#414

Post by sidewndr46 » Wed, May 04, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #286

sidewndr46 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, this is one of the biggest issues I have with a government bureaucracy like the CDC. The government couldn't be bothered to study AIDS when it emerged in the US and actively denied its existence. But smoking? Do we really need to study it? It isn't even a disease. The states signed the Master Settlement Agreement. I feel like that should be the last time the government ever brings it up or spends another do…

> But smoking? Do we really need to study it? It isn't even a disease. Addiction is considered a disease by physicians, psychiatrists, and medical researchers[1]. > I feel like that should be the last time the government ever brings it up or spends another dollar worrying about it. The CDC publishes research on things like: - second-hand smoke - preventing your children from starting to smoke - the costs to society -…

No, government research is not "to protect non-smokers from corporations that are trying to trick them into an addiction and also from smokers who fill shared air with carcinogens". This is explicitly what the Master Settlement Agreement does in 46 states. Marketing of tobacco products is nearly eliminated under the MSA. Anti smoking advocacy groups were formed. The pro-tobacco industries groups were dissolved.

If the MSA is failing at that, the solution is to void the agreement and coerce the tobacco industry into another one with updated statues. Not to expand the CDC into areas like tax policy.

And really - "preventing your children from starting to smoke"? There is no research that needs to be done in this area. The industry can't market to children. The industry can't sell to children. There are no shortage of smokers who shared their plight before their death (Yul Brynner comes to mind). If all that isn't enough to stop the problem, then the problem lies elsewhere in society. No more money needs to be evaporated into this "research".

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#415

Post by Aerroon » Wed, May 04, 2022, 6:19 PM UTC

niij wrote: post #327

standardUser wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CDC gave its pronouncements and state and local governments acted as they saw fit. They were a glorified informational pamphlet. They exercised virtually no real power whatsoever - that was mostly governors and mayors. I'm constantly bewildered when people try to paint a toothless bureaucracy as some sort of Orwellian ministry.

That _should_ be their role, but unfortunately they overstepped. The CDC implemented an eviction moratorium for around a year (September 4, 2020 through August 26, 2021). That had very real, negative impact on landlords during that time. I doubt those effected would call it toothless. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/04/2020-19...

Why focus on the landlords? The CDC decided to do away with the rule of law and took powers they didn't have a mandate for.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#416

Post by Aerroon » Wed, May 04, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #406

niij wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing/nationalizing property, even for a year, results in higher costs to do business in the future due to the assumed risk. So I agree with you that this may have helped the single metric in the short term; there are long term consequences. That means as an individual you will either pay higher rent or be forced to buy. Many people would rather have the flexibility and no maintenance that renting provides.

> Stealing/nationalizing property, even for a year, results in higher costs to do business in the future due to the assumed risk. It's a good thing that's not what they did , then. Making landlords wait to be paid for a limited time is not the same thing as "stealing," and furthermore there were billions upon billions in subsidies passed around to mitigate the effects of this very reasonable measure. It's telling tha…

>Making landlords wait to be paid for a limit time is not the same thing as "stealing,"

It is though. Banks make an entire business about taking your money now and giving it back to you later. They even pay you extra!

How would you feel if your employer decided to only pay you in 3 months' time? What consequences do you think this could have on the average person?

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#417

Post by zdragnar » Wed, May 04, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

sfink wrote: post #403

zdragnar wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am ok with my doctor knowing there was a 12% chance that I broke curfew during a pandemic lockdown, given my zip code or whatever I am asking this out of genuine curiosity: Why? What actionable information does that tell your doctor about you, specifically?

Because, at least in my opinion, doctors should be considering base rates carefully. If I come in with an unusual set of symptoms, then I don't want to be tested for something that is vanishingly unlikely and not tested for something that has an unusually high frequency of occurring given my specific situation (demographic, race, vaccination rates in the community I live in for diseases that can produce my symptoms,…

Running with the 12% figure, I'm still curious as to how that is useful. Have you traveled recently? Been to a large gathering? Never left your house? Visited with family from out of town? Do you commute for work as a front-line worker?

Risk profiles for less common diseases make sense, but these are questions your doctor should ask regardless of the infection rate of your zip code in a pandemic scenario, however.

> Medicine should not be one size fits all

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect tests for most obvious fit of your symptoms (with followups for less likely causes if those are negative) rather than needing to do statistics puzzles for every patient that comes in through the door.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#418

Post by smt88 » Wed, May 04, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

sidewndr46 wrote: post #414

smt88 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But smoking? Do we really need to study it? It isn't even a disease. Addiction is considered a disease by physicians, psychiatrists, and medical researchers[1]. > I feel like that should be the last time the government ever brings it up or spends another dollar worrying about it. The CDC publishes research on things like: - second-hand smoke - preventing your children from starting to smoke - the costs to society -…

No, government research is not "to protect non-smokers from corporations that are trying to trick them into an addiction and also from smokers who fill shared air with carcinogens". This is explicitly what the Master Settlement Agreement does in 46 states. Marketing of tobacco products is nearly eliminated under the MSA. Anti smoking advocacy groups were formed. The pro-tobacco industries groups were dissolved. If th…

> If all that isn't enough to stop the problem, then the problem lies elsewhere in society.

That is what they're researching: how to stop people from harming themselves, others, and society by smoking.

Tobacco companies can't market directly to children, but they have been working around it in many ways for decades. The latest method is vaping.

Science and policy are not "one and done". We need to know if past policies were mistakes, and we need to adapt new policies to changes in tactics by bad actors.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#419

Post by timcavel » Wed, May 04, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #48

samschooler wrote: post #2

See the issue here is that this data exists at all and it’s purchasable by any group. I feel like the CDC are the least scary people buying this data. And from the looks of it they used it for medical research, which if similar in style to other medical research is bound by boards and ethics committees. What we aren’t writing about in this article are the groups using this data Cambridge Analytica style to sway polit…

Given the virtually unlimited executive powers the CDC believes it has, I am not sure I agree with your assessment that it is the least scary people. But I agree that the problem here is not that the CDC is buying it so much that this data is available to be bought.

No post body was provided.

Re: CDC tracked millions of phones to see if Americans followed lockdown orders

#420

Post by sidewndr46 » Wed, May 04, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #418

sidewndr46 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, government research is not "to protect non-smokers from corporations that are trying to trick them into an addiction and also from smokers who fill shared air with carcinogens". This is explicitly what the Master Settlement Agreement does in 46 states. Marketing of tobacco products is nearly eliminated under the MSA. Anti smoking advocacy groups were formed. The pro-tobacco industries groups were dissolved. If th…

> If all that isn't enough to stop the problem, then the problem lies elsewhere in society. That is what they're researching: how to stop people from harming themselves, others, and society by smoking. Tobacco companies can't market directly to children, but they have been working around it in many ways for decades. The latest method is vaping. Science and policy are not "one and done". We need to know if past polici…

If vaping is an issue, then the legislature and AG of each state should draft a letter to any companies selling vaping products telling them that they are expected to sign the MSA by a given date. If that doesn't happen, ban the companies products completely and forever. There is no need to waste money researching it. It's nicotine. It's addictive. It's a carcinogen. This has been known for much, much longer than I have been alive.

Coercion is the literal function of government.

The issue is, government is too spineless to ever actually do that. Governments have become dependent on the money that flows in from taxes on those products and settlements like the MSA. They can't actually make good on the threat to ban them because they depend on the money.

So instead we get "research", "negotiations", and "compromise". Which are all a waste of taxpayer money. The US has some of the most brutal punishments in the world for drug trafficking and possession (I think China is actually worse, but I am unsure) for individuals. But we can't just ban the marketing of nicotine containing products and accessories? I don't buy it.