Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that the people it benefits the most are disproportionately in the upper classes (they took out the most debt). Student loan forgiveness doesn't do what most people think it will do. https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/how-student-loan...
or you know we could just make student loan eligible for bankruptcy.... then just let the courts deal with it as usual.
U.S. forgives 40k student loans
411–420 of 483 posts
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
100% in good faith: > I'm curious to know how these loans became such a political issue. It's unusual to take out a loan and then complain about having to repay it. Saddling _teenagers_ with such debt is problematic in many ways. For many of my peers they were not ready/cut out for college but still had the debt + schooling jammed down their throats because "it's what you're suppose to do." Then, there's the cost to…
> Saddling _teenagers_ with such debt is problematic in many ways. So perhaps the solution involves some combination of 1) raising the age at which someone is considered an adult until it does not end with "teen", and 2) not giving loans to people with no plausible way to repay it, and/or 3) requiring a cosigner who is both older and better funded. Maybe we take away blanket guarantees for student loans, make them di…
Cost.
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The joke of a school I went to now costs upward of $38k/yr base (not sure what room/food on top of that is). Hell state schools are upwards of $20k a year even with financial aid...
Maybe higher education shouldn't be this expensive across the board so people wouldn't be saddled with crippling high-risk debt while they're arguably still children.
I can tell you whatever the %#%$ I got was NOT worth anywhere near that in tuition... gen-eds were effectively highschool 2.0, and I was learning more in-industry than I was in the classroom at the time for my main area of study.
To think people are getting charged $38k+/yr for that just pisses me off. Even if it was an objectively good education + program - it's still too expensive.
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Also one more thing I want to address in your response: what about economically disenfranchised peoples? If we implement the ideals you lay out I can easily see that being a huge barrier. I personally believe these folks should have access to higher education too - which is why I strongly support things like financial aid, grants, scholarships, etc.
If we make it into a more traditional loan I think it would potentially discriminate against students who come from less-than-ideal backgrounds.
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#413Earlier quoted context omitted.
And also reimburse the people who sacrificed to pay theirs off or avoid them in the first place. I’d donate my reimbursement if they did, but of course they won’t.
I paid off my student loans. My wife has student loans still. If next year all new college students get free tuition I'm not going to be upset that I had to pay. I'm going to be happy that they don't have my burden. We as a society need to push the next generation up, not complain that they don't have it as hard as we do. *Free Tuition = Tuition paid for by our taxes.
I oppose student loan forgiveness because it punishes people who were responsible and rewards people who were irresponsible. Moreover, it disproportionately rewards the upper classes who are more likely to have more debt--it's regressive. If we decide we want to help people who are burdened, let's mail checks based on need (whether their need is a result of student loan debt or not) and those of us who are doing fine can pay those checks with our taxes. Student loan forgiveness is just welfare for the upper classes (me included!).
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#414Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Bad roads? Well, Congress and the states won't raise the fuel tax. We overbuilt infrastructure based on Government accounting practices that don't adhere to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP or US GAAP). Representatives get elected based on promises of new roads and highways, not on successful stewardship of what we have. People realize this misaligned incentive, that isn't propaganda. > Bad education?…
1. Govt Reps get elected for a lot of things. Maintaining our roads, bridges and infrastructure are always buzzwords during elections. 2. Your link to Brookings just reinforces the issue. For profit schools account for 10% of students, borrow more often compared to public school students, and borrow more money. The Fed link shows that these students default more; they also are higher in pure dollar terms when it come…
You're arguing against conventional political wisdom wrt the US, so I think the onus is on you to provide a better argument than sometimes the conventional wisdom is wrong.
> Your link to Brookings just reinforces the issue. For profit schools account for 10% of students, borrow more often compared to public school students, and borrow more money. The Fed link shows that these students default more; they also are higher in pure dollar terms when it comes to Pell grants and Stafford loans. There's no good defense for profit schools.
Your original comment was that loans to for profit colleges were the cause of bad education. I'm pointing out that they account for a tiny fraction of all degrees. You aren't making an argument here that shows the margins driving overall outcomes. The loan amounts aren't really relevant to the quality, or at least you aren't making that argument. I actually don't think the federal government should be in the lending game for education. It's too indirect and creates perverse incentives.
> Our tax to GDP has been constant for decades. Wow. I guess that wouldn't coincide with the Republican and Grover Norquist's efforts to "drown the baby in the bath tub?"
Yes, federal receipts as a percentage of GDP have vacillated between 14% and 19% since 1944 averaging around 17%. Grover Norquist's Tax Reform Act in '85 was followed by a 5 year uptick in federal tax receipts. Countries that capture more tax as a percentage of GDP do so through VAT.
> A tax code can be "progressive" in theory while in practice it's regressive since the wealthy can shelter so much of their income
The top 50% of earners pay 97% of federal income taxes in the US, which is the vast majority of federal revenue. That is definitionally a progressive tax scheme, in fact the most progressive globally by any measure. To argue otherwise is to deny basic confirmable facts. If your argument is about the 400 wealthiest families in America, then that's something else entirely, but it doesn't make the tax regime regressive.
> If you look at trust in government, it was in the mid 70% range up until 1960
You're looking at a measure that only starts after WWII, and probably in those early years excluded racial minorities.
> So obviously all the people in 1950 were so scarred by how poorly the British Parliament treated us in the 1700s.
This isn't an argument, it's jus reductio ad absurdum and misrepresents my argument about the cultural and historical roots of skepticism of government.
> The drop in trust dropped during the Vietnam War when both parties continually lied to the American people, and since then has hovered in the 30% range for 40 years
Can you blame anyone for being upset about Vietnam, Watergate, and the Cuban Missile Crisis?
> But it's pretty clear that one party has had a platform for over 40 years to diminish the accomplishments of the Federal Government (except the Military), to starve it of funds, to politicize it's agencies.
I think it's pretty clear that both political parties have been behind some rotten shit since Vietnam. Both parties were in favor of the drug war, needless foreign adventurism, the bungling of trade liberalization, and a raft of other stupid things.
I would argue that both parties see government as a cudgel to bludgeon their adversaries with, and not as a tool with witch to achieve social good. As far as I can tell they're both obsessed with fighting culture war battles and have very little interest in the practical concerns of governance.
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you would rather your children continue to suffer the burden of a system that forces people into limited opportunities simply because you had to? So much for making the world a better place. The course that you took in life failed to teach you a fundamental truth about how a society grows.
Once again this is not the issue, either my post was unclear or you didn't read it carefully. I definitely do want the system to be fixed for future generations to not go through this. I do not want past generations to get a free pass. Loan forgiveness does nothing for future generations of students.
Loan forgiveness unlocks the spending potential of an entire generation. People have been holding off on buying their first home or having their first child because of the burden of their loans.
It is literally stymying our future generations.
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think the schools aren't punished for being scams, and they're just free to keep scamming students? And debt relief helps the debtor, not the original receiver of the funds. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Technical_Institute#Legal_... > On August 25, 2016, the U.S. Department of Education banned ITT Tech from enrolling students who receive federal aid. The Department also doubled the surety funds t…
The mistake ITT Tech did was being "for profit" - run it as a non-profit and be satisfied with enriching the management, and sail on.
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you would rather your children continue to suffer the burden of a system that forces people into limited opportunities simply because you had to? So much for making the world a better place. The course that you took in life failed to teach you a fundamental truth about how a society grows.
> forces people into limited opportunities No one was forced to do this. > So much for making the world a better place. The course that you took in life failed to teach you a fundamental truth about how a society grows. Idealism is great for virtue signaling. The reality is that rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior does not lead to a healthy society.
You are confusing a societal failure with a moral one: we have failed as a society by forcing those that pursue higher education to bear the entire cost of that education and we have failed to guarantee a role for those people in our society that pays well enough to pay off an inflated loan for that cost.
These are not individual moral failures. Everyone that is not able to pay off their student loans is not a bad person. Student loans are a bad system for educating people. They were introduced when higher education was desegregated and opened to women. When the white men at the reigns of the government no longer saw fit to fund public higher education for people that were not white men.
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its an interesting piece of legislation to see, and strongly implies former senator Joe Bidens initial student debt legislation was beginning to have seriously negative repercussions at the federal level for employee retention and hiring not even 5 years into its inception. Back in 2005 Biden supported and stumped for a bill that stripped students of bankruptcy protections and led the country into a 1.7 trillion doll…
If you had actually read the article, you would have seen that the loans were forgiven under a student loan forgiveness program introduced in 2007.
the point im making is that the federal government enacted forgiveness for its employees only 2 years after the 2005 reform to make discharging student loans impossible.
you can learn more about the 2005 bankruptcy reform act here: https://www.lawb.uscourts.gov/bankruptcy-reform-act-2005
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#419Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Bad roads? Well, Congress and the states won't raise the fuel tax. We overbuilt infrastructure based on Government accounting practices that don't adhere to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP or US GAAP). Representatives get elected based on promises of new roads and highways, not on successful stewardship of what we have. People realize this misaligned incentive, that isn't propaganda. > Bad education?…
1. Govt Reps get elected for a lot of things. Maintaining our roads, bridges and infrastructure are always buzzwords during elections. 2. Your link to Brookings just reinforces the issue. For profit schools account for 10% of students, borrow more often compared to public school students, and borrow more money. The Fed link shows that these students default more; they also are higher in pure dollar terms when it come…
Your argument isn't self-consistent. You're arguing both that:
1. the federal government is a competent force for good and should be strengthened.
2. the federal government is corrupt and controlled by the rich.
The only way this is a consistent argument is if you're a plutocrat.
Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans
#420Earlier quoted context omitted.
So since it's only 8% it's fine? How many 8% increments can there be until we're allowed to be against this? I'm against any percentage of funneling taxpayer money to college administrators. Reduce tuition, don't rubber stamp federal loans while letting administrators increase costs.
Student debt is massive, yes, but why are so few people asking where that money actually went? A cursory search says student loan debt is roughly $1.6 trillion dollars and there are around 4,000 to 6,000 colleges/universities. This is a rough number and the actual amount depends on your criteria, but the gist is that you have a ton of money flowing into a relatively small pool. Yes, I know not every dollar of loans g…
Instead, they spent $120,000,000 renovating it to be shiny and modern and also up to code. I don't understand why it was so expensive, but I'll assume it's not an order of magnitude away from true cost.
$1.6 trillion is "only" a few hundred million per school. If the cost of renovating one building is any indication, it's easy for a university to use up that much money.