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App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

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Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#411

Post by zepto »

Apocryphon wrote: post #410
zepto wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter how many links you post if they don’t answer the relevant questions: How many security flaws are there, and when do you anticipate that they will all be eliminated? If you can’t answer these questions, then you can’t make any claim about it being close to perfect, or even how good it is.

That is fair. I suppose then it is a question of faith in Apple's security abilities. I just happen to trust Apple to be more than their App Store.

I think Apple is more than their store too. I also think they if Apple is forced to allow alternate stores, users and developers will suffer, the industry will be set back, and a few scummy operators will take some rent.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#412

Post by Apocryphon »

zepto wrote: post #411
Apocryphon wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fair. I suppose then it is a question of faith in Apple's security abilities. I just happen to trust Apple to be more than their App Store.

I think Apple is more than their store too. I also think they if Apple is forced to allow alternate stores, users and developers will suffer, the industry will be set back, and a few scummy operators will take some rent.

I understand that point and it has been a hypothetical situation that has been debated for years, and is only now getting closer to (possibly) becoming true. I think fears of it are overblown, as I have discussed elsewhere, because it both portrays Apple as helpless and portrays those scummy operators as being all-powerful. It also underestimates user resistance towards having to deal with more app stores that they wouldn't want to, and also underestimates the potential for smaller indie developers that alternative app stores and alternative payment processors could unlock.

That is my position, and I'd rather discuss it at a different place, but thank you for letting me know where you stand, and now you know where I do.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#413

Post by shuckles »

ThatPlayer wrote: post #347
shuckles wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true? I still have to remove AltAdBrowser fairly often from my mother’s relatively new Dell laptop when I visit.

There's a similar solution to both: Parental controls https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201304

When people say trustworthy software installation is a “solved problem” on desktop, do you think they are referring to parental controls?

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#414

Post by flutas »

zepto wrote: post #396
flutas wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think application software is like a text message then you don’t know enough to comment on this issue. If you think that was an example of what I think software is like, then you probably shouldn't comment on it either. I'm just commenting on the fact that, like you said, there's always going to be security issues and using them as the scapegoat for "why" this can't happen is a bad argument. What's the diffe…

> like you said, there's always going to be security issues and using them as the scapegoat for "why" this can't happen is a bad argument. No it isn’t. If you agree that there are always going to be security issues, then there is no reason why customers shouldn’t be able to choose a product where human moderation is used to mitigate them. You haven’t made any case as to why customers should be denied this option.

>If you agree that there are always going to be security issues, then there is no reason why customers shouldn’t be able to choose a product where human moderation is used to mitigate them.

First of all, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. A iMessage can install a virus, but you don't see people asking for human moderation of all of their messages on the remote chance that one message contains a virus.

I'll also just copy/paste my reply here since you decided to not reply to it.

What's the difference between running an app ad-hoc right now (via XCode) vs allowing a user to download and install any app they want. The answer is, there isn't any except for artificial limitations put in place by apple.

Anything an app that is installed could do would be the same between the store, ad-hoc builds, or installed from a download. The security is in the platform, not the App Store. How many times have we seen something slip through Apple's review process? Fortnite got a full CC flow UI through, many apps back in the day would slip WiFi tethering into their app and get through. All it would take is a simple API call with a boolean to enable or disable the "security issue."

> You haven’t made any case as to why customers should be denied this option.

Xbox Game Pass, done. Any time Apple bans someone from using a new technology, it harms the consumer and limits user choice.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#415

Post by olliej »

ahiknsr wrote: post #190
olliej wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple makes some on the sale of hardware, but does not charge end users for software updates after then. Unlike google it actually supports that hardware. The support costs money. You're right that unity wasn't a great example though. A better example would be the xbox, playstation, switch, etc. The alternative model is you sell out your users, like google does.

> You're right that unity wasn't a great example though. A better example would be the xbox, playstation, switch, etc. Not really. Gaming consoles are usually sold at loss. "The reason game consoles end up being profitable is through a combination of software, service, and accessory sales, but it's still surprising to find Microsoft has never achieved hardware profitability" https://www.pcmag.com/news/microsoft-says-…

Sure, let's do the math:

The average cost of manufacture is a PS5 is $450, the cheap version of a PS5 is $399, so a $60 loss. The platform takes a 30% commission on games the are priced >=$69.99, so at three games per machine they're making a profit.

The average cost of a game on iOS is 48c. Apple takes 14.4c, all that money then does things like supporting devices long after they were sold. Unlike google apple doesn't monetize its users: google continues to make money after devices are sold because the platform itself exists to help their ad business, that means android would still make money for google if they didn't even have their own store.

Add to that apple providing actual major software updates for devices more than 5 years after they were sold - not just security fixes - and I would argue that apple has a greater justification for their commission than Sony or MS do.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#416

Post by olliej »

simondotau wrote: post #379
ahiknsr wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're right that unity wasn't a great example though. A better example would be the xbox, playstation, switch, etc. Not really. Gaming consoles are usually sold at loss. "The reason game consoles end up being profitable is through a combination of software, service, and accessory sales, but it's still surprising to find Microsoft has never achieved hardware profitability" https://www.pcmag.com/news/microsoft-says-…

The business model shouldn’t decide what’s legal. If it’s legal for Sony, it should be legal for Apple. Or if you disagree, fine. What’s the threshold? How does the Government acquire the information to determine if enforcement is necessary? What happens if the PS5 console, later in its life, is ever sold for a profit?

I think the argument being made is that hardware companies should be required to sell hardware at break even and provide free services and software to developers.

:D

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#417

Post by ok_dad »

zepto wrote: post #394
ok_dad wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus the cost of an Apple computer to develop it on.

So what? There are plenty of other options if you want to develop software for you own use.

Not for on my iPhone! I can't compile on Linux and publish software onto an iPhone without major trickery.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#418

Post by dangus »

monopoliessuck wrote: post #223
dangus wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame the consumer? Uh, no. You're bringing up non-profit projects as proof that consumers aren't doing the right thing. But, don't forget, there used to be a highly competitive commercial smartphone market until the competition was whittled down through acquisitions and exits. Microsoft, Blackberry, Palm, Apple, Nokia, and Android all had their own smartphone OS simultaneously for a brief moment in time. Consumers c…

I think you're moving goal posts. Not all problems with our market are the result of simple consolidation of market leaders. Put simply, don't buy products that lock you in if you don't want products to lock you in. It seems like consumers are capable of making decisions based on price, durability, features, color etc. why is any other variable sacred? The answer is consumers don't care about these issues enough to p…

It's still blame for being non-technical. People rightfully don't really know how a lot of these highly complex products work.

They just want to (e.g.) make sure their photos of their kids won't get deleted.

The whole purpose of regulations is to protect the consumer against predatory companies.

Companies are showing up armed with a massive information asymmetry. They’re paying thousands of data scientists and marketers to learn everything about you and how to manipulate you into buying.

The customer is the prey, not the predator, and blaming them is blaming the victim.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#419

Post by sgjohnson »

zepto wrote: post #395
tragictrash wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the logical gymnastics you iphone fanboys go through to make your views fit the world we live in.

The world we live in is one where nobody is forced to buy an Apple product. If you don’t like what Apple does, don’t buy their products.

I don’t like what they do, but I also like their products.

Now what?

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#420

Post by mullingitover »

tragictrash wrote: post #376
mullingitover wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be pretty trivial to throw together some automation that reinstalls your sideloaded apps nightly.

It's not. You obviously never really developed anything using both xcode, the automated xcode build tooling, or an iPhone before.

I operated a whole bespoke enterprise build farm for iOS that did hundreds of headless xcode builds per day, plus I wired up automated app re-signing with a signing identity repository. It's a pain because Apple isn't super helpful if you're not on the straight and narrow path, but it's not rocket surgery. Just hooking up some actions to automate a build and install when 'phone plugged in' event is detected isn't that hard.
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