As I repeated said, doing away "advanced maths" will make you left people feel better and will hurt a lot of socially-economically challenged families. Those who can afford RSM or AOPS will learn algebra, if they can, as young as 3rd or 4th grade, while the kids' parents don't need to lift a finger. Those who solely rely on the public school to push their kids? They will be screwed.
I have all the means to support my kids, including sending them to private schools. Yet I'm still angry because so many kids will not be able to get the education that they deserve. So much for the equity and inclusiveness.
California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#412This is just going to make racial differences in math achievement worse because wealthier parents are now more incentivized to put their children in private school.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#413Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but even very young children can learn these concepts if you would just spend some time teaching it to them. Many decades of cognitive science disagree with you. See Piaget for one of the earlier researchers on this topic. Even though his original ideas have been refuted or refined, the basic premises of his ideas are still prominent among the large group of modern researchers that some people dub neo-Piagetians.
Many decades of the lived experiences of children in other countries disagrees with that research. Children in eastern European countries learn advanced concepts from as early as second grade. In asian countries they are introducing Algebra in 6th grade or earlier. This is the problem California finds its self in. They have wonderful "research" showing that kids pick up the concepts better if you wait till they are o…
> Many decades of the lived experiences of children in other countries disagrees with that research.
Based on your reply, I’m fairly certain that you are not familiar with the research and your not familiar with what is actually happening in Eastern Europe, Kumon, etc. in relation to that research. As a professional in this area of research, I feel fairly qualified to say that I am.
I am happy to agree to disagree about what the problem is here, but I strongly encourage you to look deeper into what is actually happening in the research and the learning environments you are praising/promoting before you propagate a loose collection of anecdotes as data that points to a clear solution.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#414I am not from US so don't interpret my comment trough US blue vs red or similar lenses. My observations is that students learn at different speed, the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious, at each step some student will fall behind, then if he is behind he will have more trouble comprehending the next topic and in the end you get a student that does not know the basic ru…
"the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious"
It's not obvious to the authors of the California Math Framework, who believe that:
- we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable
- every child should be taught grade-level material (no matter how far behind, or far ahead, they may be)
- teachers are capable of successfully teaching mixed ability classes (irrespective of how the min/max) using 'differentiated instruction'
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#415I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm
Second grade in Poland I remember problems like this when learning addition and subtraction: 3 + ? = 10 10 - ? = 3
When I explained to my son that "X" was just another way of representing the blank space in equations, he got extremely mad about the world making algebra seem hard. He screamed about how "I've been doing that to calculate damage in video games for years" and stomped off.
He's never completely gotten over it. He's still mad about it to this day.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#416Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…
Tell us a little bit about your Indian high school experience. Who were your peers? Who were their parents, where were they from, how wealthy were they? How wealthy was you? Did the school have competitive entry? Did kids get kicked out for failing or doing poorly?
There’s different schools: private, public, home schooling, religious etc. I went to a public school, mostly with kids from not so great socio economic backgrounds. I wasn’t “don’t have anything to eat” poor, but I was definitely “can only afford 2 pairs of new clothes every year” poor. Most other kids were in the same boat.
The thing with schools in India though is, regardless of your status as a school, your curriculum is decided by one of the central authorities, either at a national level or at state level, and since the standardized tests for college admissions are the same for everyone, the variations in curriculum among these different schools are small.
Kids would repeat grades or have remedial classes for doing poorly. And the answer was to not lower the bar for everyone, but make students work harder for doing bad.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#417I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…
> Why exactly is it that you aren’t taught courses like math, or history or language according to your ability instead of your age?
That's exactly the question. Under Equitable Math, all children must always be at the same level up until the senior year, and Algebra will not be offered in middle school. Some children are ready for Algebra in middle school, and some aren't.
This is the most critical point of contention, and why the debate is not over whether the Common Core, which already emphasizes "deep" comprehension over rote memorization, ought be reformed to go even "deeper".
> I’m honestly no interested enough to read the 800 page document this article is about.
It's notable that the entire Common Core specification for math can be read in a single day. It is meant to be a coordinating document for many parties, and not just metaphorical lawyers.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#418I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm
" . . . as a means of promoting equity" and "The intent of the state mathematics framework, its designers say, is to maintain rigor while also helping remedy California’s achievement gaps for Black, Latino and low-income students, which remain some of the largest in the nation. It's Harrison Bergeron Math.
I had to look this up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
"In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic."
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#419Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems entirely arbitrary (if not false?). I was taught the basics of algebra and even trig (at least, how pi and radians work) in the 4th and 5th grade
Yes, but I'm talking about what works well for the average student, not just math whizs who post on HN.
So you propose we handicap the geniuses to make the rest feel better? Who do you propose will invent great things to keep our world thriving if you’ve made all the geniuses average?
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#420I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm
This isn't that different from 2nd and 3rd grade math in the US. There's no algebra in your link, but either way, you're confusing algebraic concepts, which are typically introduced in grade school even in the US and Algebra 1, which is just a conveniently named part of the overall math curriculum, not one that introduces Algebraic concepts for the first time.