Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#411

Post by flavius29663 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #332

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

I think the issue is that EU was founded with an idea that they can copy US creation pattern, but without sufficient consideration of the simple fact that there is a thousand plus years of history that is being crammed into respective citizens' heads including, but not limited to wars with neighbors. It is hard to forget blood; especially if survivors still have a state. Do not get me wrong. I like the idea of EU. I…

> I doubt EU would be willing to do the same things US did to maintain its grip.

I think you meant war.

I think the EU is unwilling to make even non-bloody sacrifices, like the US did in the beginning at the Connecticut Compromise (1787). Basically as early as 11 years after the independence, the large US states relinquished a lot of power to the smaller states. With that compromise they gave 2 senators to each state, no matter how big or small it was.

I really don't see Germany relinquishing that much power, or France for that matter.

Also the EU cannot function like the US without the absolutely massive transfer of cash from rich to poor states.

A poor state in the US receives as much as 10k per person NET from the federal government https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/federal-aid... Imagine giving out 200 billions to Romania alone every year... At best we get 10 billions a year, but only for a limited time. In the previous budget we got like 3-5 billions a year. For those funds, the richer countries expect a lot of obedience in return, always dangling the threat of cutting the funds if we "don't behave".

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#412

Post by dogorman » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #81

mola wrote: post #39

All of Netanyahu's allies in the world seem to have profited from this relationship by obtaining military grade surveillance inorder to suppress human rights of journalists and opposition. This is Netanyahu's legacy, a proto dictator, arming dictators. I'm convince pegasus was used against Israeli journalists, opposition leaders and law enforcement officials. Too bad our political system is still under his thumb and…

Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships, actaully all of them: Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Morocco (arguably, let's agree it's not a liberal democracy) and so on and so on. There are zero democracies in the area. So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; it's not like the oppositions to these dictators are any bette…

> Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships

Not just in the region. In the 1970s, Israel worked with apartheid South Africa to develop nuclear weapons. South Africa has subsequently been disarmed, but Israel has not been.

Incidentally, in 1963 JFK was trying to stop Israel's nuclear weapons program because American intelligence had failed to turn up any evidence that other countries in the region were pursuing the same. In a letter to Ben-Gurion, JFK wrote:

> "I can well appreciate your concern for developments in the UAR. But I see no present or imminent nuclear threat to Israel from there. I am assured that our intelligence on this question is good and that the Egyptians do not presently have any installation comparable to Dimona, nor any facilities potentially capable of nuclear weapons production. But, of course, if you have information that would support a contrary conclusion, I should like to receive it from you through Ambassador Barbour. We have the capacity to check it."

Egypt never developed nuclear weapons.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#413

Post by trasz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

ptsneves wrote: post #382

trasz wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland, welfare? :-D As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.

I am not a Pole, but live in Poland. Umowa o dzielo is quite pervasive but this is not a problem specific to Poland. Portugal, my home country has the same problems just the thing is a different name. The translation would be contractor. As a contractor you obviously have no rights, even so i think this is not the equivalent of US employment. In both countries the governments are trying to make it quite hard to have…

The difference is, in Poland "umowa o dzieło" isn't hard: if anything it's easier than normal employment, because you don't have to care about things like ZUS, and it's much cheaper (in terms of labour costs).

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#414

Post by rsynnott » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #116

ginko wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only large countries that did better were the UK and US due to banning the export of vaccines. It's mainly the UK trying to spin this as a propaganda win after BREXIT.

What other comparable developed countries are there ? Australia had it's own isolation thing so it's a different context entirely. Russia had vacation faster, China as well.

> Russia had vacation faster, China as well.

... Wait, what makes you think that? Per OurWorldInData, except for a brief period in early January, EU total doses per capita have always been ahead of Russia and China, until June, when China drew ahead (Russia is still _far_ behind). And even then, that wasn't supply-driven; if you consider EU countries with high vaccine acceptance (Ireland, Germany, Denmark etc), those are still ahead of China; China overtook the EU as a whole due to vaccine reluctance in parts of the EU.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#415

Post by hypocry12 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #298

hypocry12 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History also shows that when Germany messes about with east europe it can get messy rather quickly. And sadly hungary is in bed with russia. The eu should just cut funding for hungary and let everything else play out from there. Anything more that that is pure suicide for an already declining eu.

History as in 80+ years ago?

AFAIK last time it was when the eu and germany pushed for ukraine regime change. ended up with ukraine getting invaded and loosing territory. so germany better stay out of east europe and so should the eu. the only way to win is by economics. thats how the us eventually won the cold war. also germany is not particularly popular, considering its bullying tactics and it being one of europes largest polluters, eu corruption it supports and so on. all i want is to make sure the most effective tools are used against hungary, as that country is a symptom of a much deeper problem. germany should let established powers deal with hungary and get into it before it messes things up again.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Post by jq-r » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #295

jq-r wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. EU is the boogeyman for the governments in Eastern Europe. Whatever unpopular move they make, EU gets blamed for it. It is easy to blame some entity everyone knows exits, but at the same time, that entity is more like a group which doesn't fight back against it. Even if they fight back and criticize the government here and there, the latter own the media and that becomes a non-story. Right wing governments alw…

Sorry but this is a caricature. These countries were dying to join the West 30 years ago. Orban himself was one of the most prominent pro-West figures in the 90s. The only reason these countries are now “hostile” is because the EU and the West have changed.

So what's your point then? Of course stuff changes in 20 or 30 years. Everyone wanted to join the EU. They've joined, and for the last 20 years the elites are reaping the benefits.

And that doesn't change the fact that there is a very strong anti EU sentiment among the Eastern European population. Did the EU screw them? They did not. Who did? Those same politicians now blaming EU for 30 years of their own corruption, suppression of freedoms, stalling and maintaining status quo.

Here we had war which ended 26 fucking years ago. No war can do as much damage as corruption and incompetence. And somehow EU gets blamed for it. I understand that EU is no saint, but what we have here is a disaster happening in slow motion.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Post by rsynnott » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #23

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

What's the point of becoming one nation if everyone has different languages?

Ask Switzerland, or, on a larger scale, China.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#418

Post by tester34 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #406

tester34 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that higher edu institutions tend to be mehh unless you attend country's top, but law enforcement? what do you mean? fighting corruption?

Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. As for law enforcement - it's just horribly ineffective. A trivial open and shut software piracy case can last a decade.

>Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings.

It's hard to compare universities, unless you have attended both of them

Innovation output != Quality of teaching

Polish "computer-related" people are very often in top when it comes to e.g security (src: https://ctftime.org/) and top universities grads tends to have open doors to faang

I've seen people from both of those groups speaking very good about the schools they attended

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#419

Post by johnnycerberus » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #364

bluthund wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully that never happens. Hopefully more Hungary's emerge. Hopefully more Western countries start actually serving their people Hopefully nationalism crushes this perverse anti Western virus which has taken over the once greatest nations in the world

>Hopefully nationalism crushes this perverse anti Western virus Being totally against the EU, i think full on nationalism is wrong too. We life on one big spaceship and with that, we should have one organizing (not governing entity) like the UN was once meant to be.

EU is built on the European thought at least, it is the child of Christianity, strongly influenced by Greco-Roman world sprinkled with some Germanic austerity. No wonder why countries with Muslim minorities cannot join the Union. UN would never work because what binds Europe together is exactly this shared Christian past starting from the division of Catholic and Orthodox Church and ending with Protestant thought. Even if our European elite act as religion does not play a role anymore that is simply not true. Christianity is the most enduring and influential legacy of the ancient world, and its emergence the single most transformative development in Western history. Even the increasing number in the West today who have abandoned the faith of their forebears, and dismiss all religion as pointless superstition, remain recognisably its heirs. From Western France to Eastern Romania, the legacy can be felt in everything, from language to cuisine, from architecture to music. Imagine that those countries are on opposite sides of the EU but they both speak a Romance language.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#420

Post by bogomipz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #404

bogomipz wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look up the American Civil War. It lasted from 1861 to 1865 and some 600K people died. That's what happened the last time any states threatened to secede from the Union in the US of A. It's also a pretty well-known bit of history.

That was about secession, though, not misbehavior. In fact, arguably it proves the point; after the US civil war there was a period of 'reconstruction', which largely failed, and then the southern states carried on doing pretty much whatever they felt like for the next century. EDIT: As mentioned below, desire to misbehave was certainly at the root of the secession, but in practice even after the war was won the fede…

No it was not. The Civil War was about states wanting to abolish federal laws they didn't support such as those that impinged upon the right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wanted to(see Western Expansion.) How could that be considered anything but "misbehavior"? Secession was simply the byproduct of this.