How to Work Hard • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Work Hard

#411

Post by xyzelement » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #253

xyzelement wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

// There's no reason to work hard when all the benefits go to the already-wealthy above you, which is why they try to obscure that fact in as many ways as possible I have always been an employee and yet I am thrilled and thankful for the financial returns. Looking around my neighborhood, the same is true for most folks around me. There are not guarantees in life but if you have the combination of luck, skill and hard…

"If you don't believe good employer/employee relationship is possible, you won't do your part and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy." I agree that it can become self-fulfilling. However, there are some of us who started out believing the best and changed their minds after being repeatedly screwed over.

>> and changed their minds after being repeatedly screwed over.

I both sympathize for you and still don't think the "changing your mind" is helpful here. My personal example here is in my dating life. I only got married at 38. Before that I had probably 15 semi serious or serious relationships that ultimately didn't work out. Each one of them would have been a good reason to say "oh, well, it's not for me to find love" or "I am doomed because my parents divorce messed me up" or "everyone out there's not good enough for me" or whatever.

But while I would be "justified" in thinking that way, I'd also actually doom myself by thinking that way. Instead I kept looking for changes I can make (mainly in how I feel about and value others in this case) that eventually allowed me to meet an amazing woman and start a family together.

The paint I am making is - we have agency. Whatever shitty work situation you have, do you have some room to find a better employer? To beef up your skills so you're more valuable? To contribute more to the org and be deeply recognized? To build such a network that if something ever happened you can find another job in a matter of weeks? In my experience, almost everyone has SOME leverage they can use to improve their situation. If they continuously use it, their situation is statistically likely to iteratively improve (and give you bigger levers over time.) If you get jaded and give up, nothing will magically improve and just get worse.

So no matter how much you may justify jadedness, it's not a thing worth accepting because it will just kill you.

Re: How to Work Hard

#412

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #294

sidlls wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

It seems like $100k is conservatively a pretty typical salary these days even outside the big companies. That is $4M after a 40 year career, which makes you a millionaire when you retire if you can save 25%, even if the savings appreciate 0%. This seems pretty accomplishable. But perhaps the idea of "being a millionaire" you're thinking of is not that you slowly manage it over a long career, but that it happens more…

BLS says that $110k is the median.

It's not about eventually becoming a millionaire. It's about using Gates and other successful outliers as a pattern for normal people. There are tons of smart and hardworking people out there who are not very successful. There's a lot more going on than just hard work.

Re: How to Work Hard

#413

Post by cryptica » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

These days, it's not difficult to create products that are far better than your main competitors' products in every respect. The hard part is merely getting the attention of customers so that they know that your product exists...

It's extremely difficult to create this scenario whereby a prospective customer will actually compare your product against a competitor's product. If people were more open to experiment, it would be easy but network effects are just too strong. Likely propped reinforced by endless money printing.

Infinite money printing just allows the economy to maintain its structure forever. The winners always get bailed out so they always stay winners and the losers always have their competitors bailed out so they always stay losers.

Re: How to Work Hard

#414

Post by nonbirithm » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #162

When I was an undergrad at CMU, I learned how to work hard. Really hard. After having coasted through too-easy high school, I spent all day every day at CMU either programming, doing mathematics, or thinking about one of those things (to great effect: often the trick to prove a theorem would pop into my head while showering or while taking a walk). I would fall asleep while programming in the middle of the night, dre…

I feel the same. I can hardly sit through an entire two-hour movie or play a video game without feeling like I should be doing something else. I cannot feel good about myself if I cannot sense that I'm making progress learning a skill, and am stuck for hours looking down at a blank page as a result.

But what's dangerous for me is that this alarm system does not trigger consistently. I might spend too much time on HN, for example, because my impression is that HN is a place to have intellectual discoveries. I might spend too much time on YouTube because I can't think of anything else to do. Ironically there is a wealth of knowledge contained in some games that would be more worthwhile than a bunch of highlights on YouTube, but YouTube is just too easy to go back to.

When I work on some of my programming projects, I come out with the feeling that I'm just using the act of constantly working on them as an excuse to not have to worry about the fact that my life outside of them is one-dimensional and currently stagnating. I work way too hard on such non-work projects and burn out only to stop and instead spend weeks anxious that because I'm not doing anything, I am not growing as a person. I still believe this is true; I don't think I am much different from the me of two years ago, except that I've made some progress on programming projects.

But it's weird because I enjoy programming. I think it is because I enjoy programming so much that I become blinded to things that I should have seen as more important. I think I am already good enough at programming to not need much more to learn, and am only applying the skills that I happen to have built up for years.

But when I turn back to the other hobbies I always told myself I wanted to spend my life doing, all I find is a void of interest, and I ultimately accomplish little.

I also believe this was a result of how I was raised and the coping mechanisms my upbringing/college ingrained in me.

Re: How to Work Hard

#415

Post by skapadia » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

Maybe PG should include some draft reviewers who are hard working but not rich. Seems like an echo chamber to include the reviewers he does. Unbelievable.

Re: How to Work Hard

#416

Post by pwinnski » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

M277 wrote: post #390

nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

Genuine question, what if you're too poor to live the life you want in your 20s?

Then your best bet is most likely to adjust your expectations. Otherwise there's a good chance you will never have enough to live the life you want until it's too late to enjoy it. Figure out how to live happily now, is my advice.

You don't have to be rich to enjoy your life while you're young. Not every experience worth having is expensive!

Re: How to Work Hard

#417

Post by nszceta » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #355

nineplay wrote: post #317

One of my greatest regrets is how much time I wasted on 'work' in my 20s and 30s. I was an engineer, I made a comfortable salary, but I rarely took a vacation, I never traveled outside the UI, I took days off reluctantly with a vague feeling that I was letting someone down. "Later", I told myself. When I'm successful, when I'm stable, when I have the money to travel in style and not backpack around and stay at hostel…

Traveling the world is a life goal for shallow people. It is a shallow experience.

Traveling the world is a life goal for shallow people only if you never meet people, have fun together, and maintain your relationships. Staying longer term or returning to the same location regularly over weeks- months- years- is superior to moving on to new places every day.

Re: How to Work Hard

#418

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

random314 wrote: post #241

sidlls wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

10% of Americans are millionaires. I would say that 90% of full time software engineers will end up becoming millionaires. FAANG engineers become millionaires in their 20s. For others it will take longer.

Will "millionaire" still have the same meaning in 30 years as it does today?

Re: How to Work Hard

#419

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #291

giantg2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

> I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. Your friends don't need to be in a position to hire you into a high position. They just need to be in a position to recommend you for a good j…

All I know is that it's never helped me.

Re: How to Work Hard

#420

Post by pwinnski » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

nineplay wrote: post #363

colanderman wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to, but... All my friends are like this too. Time off from work is no fun when all your friends have glued themselves to a monitor. It's impossible to even convince my most sun-loving friends with secure jobs to take a beach day. I don't find meaning in traveling alone so... drown myself in work it is.

Travel alone. Please. Everyone I know who has done it has found it worthwhile. It's easy to find dozens of excuses to avoid going into the unknown. Don't let them control you.

YES! I was terrified to do anything alone before my mid-life divorce, but now I realize that traveling alone is absolutely amazing. Seeing movies alone is fantastic.

Doing things alone is a radically different experience than doing them with other people, and I love both, for different reasons.