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Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

reuters.com

411–415 of 415 posts

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#411
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's assume the science is bad, and policy is fraught with political motives, incompetence and distortion to persuade the public to behave in a way that policymakers assume (right or wrong) is in the collective benefit. Now let's assume this has always been the case. At what point, do you ever trust a vaccine or public health policy in general? Whether it's a vaccine for polio, rubella, hepatitis, etc. at some po…

These are great questions that I'm struggling with at the moment. Certainly, my chance of taking vaccines in future has gone down a lot. However, mostly I've already taken all the ones I'd ever need including vaccines against the diseases you name, so the question is somewhat moot. In the end there's no real substitute for just weighing up the risks in each case the best you can. "If you believe data integrity issues…

I believe these are persuasive arguments to trust policymakers less but not to trust non-professionals more.

Your work may be exceptional but the signal to noise ratio on public forums especially on subjects that have been politicized is just too high.

I would be curious to see what solutions exist for quality peer review that doesn't suffer from group think. Possibly providing anonymity for reviewers and cash incentives?

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#412
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been evidence of reduced transmission for months, again you are not engaging in an honest evaluation of the evidence. Most governments actually haven't followed the most obvious path in much of anything to do with this virus, that has been the source of most of the ruin. Go get vaccinated.

You are apparently unable to recognise an honest evaulation when you see one. I've read the article you linked, and others. They all make statements like "evidence suggests", which is barely the first rung on the ladder of being able to make any conclusion from the study of a particular phenomenon. If I had enthusiastically queued up to get vaccinated as soon as I was able where I live, I would have received a treatm…

I enthusiastically queued up to get AZ as soon as it was offered and now I will happily be getting a Moderna 2nd shot in a few days. Your caution has not been justified, the over-caution of the governments on these matters on the other has also not been justified. That's another thing that is pretty clear from publicly available information.

I made the absolutely correct assessment that the balance of probabilities was strongly in favour of the idea that mixing vaccines would be at least as effective as getting the same shot twice. A really good example of taking a most obvious path.

There are lots of jurisdictions that have done a very good job doing just very obvious things that work. Pretending that recent challenges or flare-ups negates the enormous areas under the death and hospitalisation curves to this point for these places is another example of obvious dishonesty in your arguments. This is like when Trump said "South Korea I hear isn't doing that well anymore" when the epidemic was raging in the US and SK was trying to get a daily case count in the hundreds under control.

As well citing the powerful flouting the rules as some excuse to not have rules is doubly dishonest and silly.

Australia's "draconian" rules look pretty good to me, under the draconian rules I am living under I can't go to a comedy club - I could in Melbourne. And if my neighbour lived in Melbourne I presume that the gall bladder surgery that he's had delayed 3 times because the hospitals are full would be done already. I live in place that effectively cancelled Mother's Day on the Friday in a bout of such stupid incompetence that seemed almost perfectly designed to bankrupt restaurants after weeks of warnings from the doctors and the media that the hospitals are literally filling up. The correct path in that instance was obvious, the government refused to take it and now I am in fact still living under draconian rules that could have been relaxed weeks ago if timely action had been taken.

If you want an example of a jurisdiction that has hardly any advantages and many, many disadvantages I would point you towards Atlantic Canada - a highly import dependent economy that is very integrated with the US and the rest of Canada, strained healthcare system at the best of times, and a very old population. Look at their results, moderate travel restrictions, reasonable enforcement, high levels of public engagement. It wasn't even very hard for them to do it, they just had to make the choice and did so.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#413
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are great questions that I'm struggling with at the moment. Certainly, my chance of taking vaccines in future has gone down a lot. However, mostly I've already taken all the ones I'd ever need including vaccines against the diseases you name, so the question is somewhat moot. In the end there's no real substitute for just weighing up the risks in each case the best you can. "If you believe data integrity issues…

I believe these are persuasive arguments to trust policymakers less but not to trust non-professionals more. Your work may be exceptional but the signal to noise ratio on public forums especially on subjects that have been politicized is just too high. I would be curious to see what solutions exist for quality peer review that doesn't suffer from group think. Possibly providing anonymity for reviewers and cash incent…

If by professional you mean specialist, then the set of all non-specialists is very large. There are certainly many professional people within that set who are out-of-field but smarter than the people within it, given the tiny size of most academic fields.

I think anonymity for reviewers and cash incentives are a great idea, but that already exists, it's a market. I don't think we need any clever or new solutions here. Simply stripping science of public funding would force it to convince large numbers of people (via markets) that the science is being done well and actually going somewhere.

It would also bring scientists within the purview of all the mechanisms that have evolved to handle fraud in the private sector, mechanisms like prosecutions, lawsuits, regulators, consumer reviews, trademarks and so on. Consider the huge difference between how Theranos was handled vs how the fraud coming from universities is handled.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many viruses in the world that have never been wiped out, and which I've never caught, nor have any other people I know. The assumption that eventually SARS-CoV-2 will infect 100% of the population is a common modelling assumption. When I went looking for validation of it, I couldn't find any. As for known dosages, as I say above, I couldn't find any information comparing dosages or cell death levels of vac…

> When I went looking for validation of it, I couldn't find any. It's unlikely you will find validation outside an entry-level text book for virology or epidemiology. From my understanding it's a fundamental assumption that's easy to verify: ALL viruses with a similar transmissibility profile as SARS-Cov-2 (high R0, aerosols) have become endemic, that includes e.g. seasonal influenza and all other human coronaviruses…

It's unlikely you will find validation outside an entry-level text book for virology or epidemiology

Absolutely nothing in modern epidemiology is validated against real world data as far as I can tell, and virology isn't concerned with the course of epidemics, so I doubt this very much.

The problem this assumption faces (and it is as you point out, only an assumption) is it quickly runs into definitional and logic issues. That's a very common problem in epidemiology and public health as far as I can tell. Viruses evolve, and so when talking about whether they can eventually infect the whole population you have to very carefully consider:

1. How fast they evolve.

2. How fast they spread.

3. How much evolution is required to make something a "new" virus vs an "old" virus.

4. What those evolutions do to disease which is what everyone actually cares about.

If you don't have a very firm grip on these things (and epidemiology doesn't) then you can get into a situation in which by the time a virus has infected "everyone" it's no longer the same virus at all, and thus cannot be said to have actually infected everyone. All the talk of different COVID variants is pointing in this direction. Taken to an extreme it boils down to "everyone will get infected with a virus at some point" which isn't an interesting statement.

Somewhat related: it's a common cognitive bias to trust self-generated knowledge more than the knowledge from others.

Indeed it is, and scientists are very often guilty of this: they reject any and all negative feedback that comes from people "out of field", even if it's extremely relevant to what they're doing. For example rejecting feedback by computer scientists of the form "your program does not work" because computer science isn't the same thing as epidemiology.

But in this case I actually don't trust self-generated knowledge more than the knowledge from others, because I don't claim to have any superior knowledge of epidemiology. I just know the people who claim to be experts, actually aren't.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#415
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe these are persuasive arguments to trust policymakers less but not to trust non-professionals more. Your work may be exceptional but the signal to noise ratio on public forums especially on subjects that have been politicized is just too high. I would be curious to see what solutions exist for quality peer review that doesn't suffer from group think. Possibly providing anonymity for reviewers and cash incent…

If by professional you mean specialist, then the set of all non-specialists is very large. There are certainly many professional people within that set who are out-of-field but smarter than the people within it, given the tiny size of most academic fields. I think anonymity for reviewers and cash incentives are a great idea, but that already exists, it's a market. I don't think we need any clever or new solutions her…

Arguably in the case of Theranos, profitability was a large motivator of the fraud but the markets probably have greater corrective forces.
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