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USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

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Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#411

Post by [deleted] »

jiofih wrote: post #341
Animats wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. Then there's the crap offered for sale on Alibaba which somebody will resell on Amazon and which will show up on a checkout rack at the gas station. USB-C has very tight tolerances and unusual material requirements. Dirt or water can create a conductive path all too easily with USB-C p…

I’ve never heard of USB-C causing a fire. The control ICs should cut the current the moment anything is out of spec. Do you have any examples of that?

[deleted]

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#412

Post by baybal2 »

londons_explore wrote: post #395
Nextgrid wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't whether reputable manufacturers will do it, it's whether the bottom of the barrel cheap cables from eBay/Amazon will do it. The advantage of USB2 is that it's very hard to screw up. The design is so simple that even the cheapest cable is usualy "okay" because making an "okay" USB2 cable is so simple. In contrast, making a USB-C cable is much more difficult, which means unscrupulous manufacturers flo…

The solution would be for devices to test cables before letting them work. If my iPhone tested the cable was up to spec before charging and said "error, bad cable" if any test failed, then china-cables would be forced to pass all the tests.

If the pin turns bad during use, you can't do much

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#413

Post by oxplot »

Lots of misconceptions about how power delivery works over USB-C. Here are a few facts that may help:

- USB-C power is negotiated over USB-PD protocol. Dumb devices are going to get 5v at low max. current.

- The sink device (laptop) must communicate and specifically ask for voltage/current it needs. Sources (power supply) aren't going to just push the max voltage to any device.

- All USB-C cables are required to support 3A of current. For any higher current, the cable must have a chip that advertises its current capabilities.

- The new spec imposes further requirement for the cable (in form of extra capability advertised by the chip in the cable). Power supplies will only enable 50v if such a cable is present.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#414

Post by vladvasiliu »

magicalhippo wrote: post #43
vladvasiliu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the cheap devices but even more worrisome are cheap, possibly not up-to-spec cables. If you buy a fake cable that pretends to have display-port alternate mode or something but doesn't, meh, you're out 10 bucks. But if it pretends to be able to carry 200 W but isn't and burns your house down instead, you might be out a tad bit more...

Should be detectable though, at least in many circumstances. USB-PD has bidirectional communication, so at least in theory both ends could know how the cable is performing by comparing voltage and current measurements at either end. If the cable drops too many Watts, the load can be disconnected.

Is this actually a standard, or would that have to be implemented like some sort of "extension"? And if so, wouldn't that break down the "universal" nature of the beast? As in a Dell laptop won't be able to communicate with an HP power brick (unless said extension becomes at-least de-facto standard)?

As I've commented elsewhere, I wonder if, at that point, there still is that much of a point in sticking with USB-C for what seem like fairly specific applications.

I mean, if we're at the point of carting around such a monster of a laptop, will an additional, dedicated, power-only connector make that much of a difference? Don't get me wrong, I'm actually somewhat tempted by such a thing, but just because it would be easy no move around, not for actually carrying on my back all day every day.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#415

Post by Klinky »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #408
Klinky wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is you have: Power: 18W, 30W, 45W, 60W, 100W, 240W Data: No Data, 480Mbps, 5Gbps, 10Gbps, 20Gbps, 40Gbps You also have a potential variety of modes that could influence your ability to achieve those speeds with certain devices.

That sounds like two markings, not too hard. Also there are no power ratings below 60W, and I don't think "no data" is a valid cable.

USB-PD supports 5, 9, 15 or 20v at between 0 - 5 amps. Higher power typically needs a thicker gauge wire.

There are definitely "charge-only" cables being marketed.

Two markings with each having multiple variations. You will have a dozen plus combinations, that will only get more complex.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#416

Post by vladvasiliu »

MonaroVXR wrote: post #390
vladvasiliu wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the cooling situation on such a laptop?

Depends on the laptop. Don't search for the ASUS G14, the G14 is dead when plug too much power into it. Bold statement, but I've warned you. You need power, your going to hear the fans. There's currently no solution for cooling it quietly.

I'm somewhat confused by all this.

My desktop PC has a RX5600, which I understand isn't particularly power hungry (nor powerful), but I still consider it a decent GPU. And the card, with its heat sink and fans isn't all that thick and stays reasonably quiet under load, even though I have a 135W CPU next to it. Could probably be even better if the fans were pulling air directly from outside.

At work, we have HP EliteDesk 800 minis, which are fairly slim (for a desktop) too. They usually have desktop i5 and i7s and are fairly quiet and don't seem to throttle. They do get somewhat loud at full load but probably because the heat sink is ridiculously small.

So I'm wondering, why aren't there more thick laptops? I'm not sure a laptop that requires 200+ Watts would last all that long on battery, so I suppose the main use case is an easy to carry, all in one machine, not so much a use-it-all-day-on-the-lap affair. So does thickness come into play that much? Those seem to target a particular audience, so they wouldn't even have to play the thinness marketing game against more popular offerings, they probably wouldn't even be shown next to each other.

I remember my dad used to have a laptop around 2005 in the Athlon XP days which was definitely thicker than my desktop GPU and the HPs and was still fairly usable on the go. I can't believe that a laptop as thick would generate airplane-level noise.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#417

Post by megamegaman »

chrisacky wrote: post #209
andrewmunsell wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explaining to my aunt or uncle or grandparents that, no, the cable and charger they bought isn't the right one for their phone/laptop/whatever even though it fits isn't ideal. Sure, it might just charge slowly (cue family tech support call), but it could also just show "not charging" on OS X for example, which is just confusing for most people. It's a real problem, even if tech savvy people are fine with lower charge…

Even I have this problem. I bbought an amp reader and throw out anything reporting below 0.4ma/h. So many devices come bundles with poor cables my house is riddled with cables that I just never want to use for charging. I'm actually TERRIFIED of pluggin anything in to my kids Switch other than Nintendo's official cable, incase I brick i t. Does anyone know if they've patched this? I have some Dell laptop charger USB-…

I understand that simply charging is fine, while video output is the riskier action because of unofficial docks that use a Switch-incompatible voltage for signalling. The wrong voltage can burn out a specific chip and require resoldering.

For what it's worth I sold the official charger/dock that came with my Switch more than a year ago and have been using only third-party chargers/cables plus a Covert Dock since then. No issues :)

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#418

Post by nikanj »

zlsa wrote: post #398
protomyth wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until you have to do tech support for someone who has a USB-C charging cable that doesn't work connecting their hard drive. Singular cable wasn't in the specs.

Any compliant USB-C cable must support USB 2.0 no matter what. If a USB-C cable isn't working with 2.0 data, then it's a noncompliant cable.

Good luck explaining to your uncle that his USB-C is non-compliant. He just knows that with USB-C you can't even trust the cables anymore.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#420

Post by rhinoceraptor »

Animats wrote: post #326
zlsa wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. The specifications are very carefully designed to prevent any combination of cables and devices from causing damage.

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. Then there's the crap offered for sale on Alibaba which somebody will resell on Amazon and which will show up on a checkout rack at the gas station. USB-C has very tight tolerances and unusual material requirements. Dirt or water can create a conductive path all too easily with USB-C p…

The solution is obvious, they just need to be constructed of prefabulated amulite.
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