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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to read up on why the subsidies were started in the first place because you're obviously clueless. The rest of your argument is laden with all sorts of cognitive dissonance. Subsidies are given for things like food because if a society doesn't of have food it's a really bad thing so the government props up the industry in bad times (in this case during the Great Depression) and we don't starve. It's…

Yeah, you should definitely read up on how farming subsidies came about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_of_the_Uni... Food got so stupidly cheap it makes no sense to grow it in the US anymore. So farmers demanded that people in cities pay for their lifestyles out of our taxes. And then they go around being entitled about it. I've had enough of farm welfare queens. Get farmers off of welfare and let…

the government pays farmers (subsidizes) based on a lot of planning. this is done because special aspects about food (go read an economics 101 book - inelastic demand, prefect competition). in short, its meant to stabilize the system such that we don't all starve next year due to surpluses this year. its not because we can just get it cheaper from other countries (sometimes that may be true, but not true on a macro scale).

if the US stopped growing food, hundreds of millions of people would die just from the famine. many governments would be toppled, probably even a few first world countries.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#412
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have have that every two years: it’s called elections.

If every state is gerrymandered beyond all sanity, are any of our elections valid?

I'm guessing it would be less intrusive to adjust the district boundary process to try and reduce gerrymandering. And perhaps adjusting the voting process to something more reflective of values than first-past-the-post.

Redrawing state boundaries is a much bigger deal.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#413
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), wh…

"What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones?" The US Bill of Rights.

You're being downvoted, but you're correct. Values espoused by the founding documents of the current United States government are also properly called American, even if the majority of americans disagree. There's two possible meanings here that is causing people confusion.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#414
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why Oregon would object unless there is some industry out there that is paying megabucks in taxes. Dumping a bunch of people sucking down more money than they pay seems like a win for Oregon. Idaho, on the other hand, might object. That would be comedy gold. "We secede." "Congratulations! Good luck finding somebody who wants you, though."

It sets a bad precedent. Any county can just vote to break off into another state due to political reasons or to form their own state? Either one party will use that to their advantage and disallow the other party from doing the same, or every state will devolve into fragments. Why stop at counties? Why can't zip codes choose the grouping that best represents them too?

> Any county can just vote to break off into another state due to political reasons or to form their own state?

While your question is still an interesting thought experiment, it is worth noting that OP was referring to counties moving between two existing states, not counties seceding a former a _new_ state, which would certainly have different ramifications.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to read up on why the subsidies were started in the first place because you're obviously clueless. The rest of your argument is laden with all sorts of cognitive dissonance. Subsidies are given for things like food because if a society doesn't of have food it's a really bad thing so the government props up the industry in bad times (in this case during the Great Depression) and we don't starve. It's…

After Covid, I never thought I would see an argument for why all of the nation’s food should be grown in another country…

You'd have to be a complete ignoramus to argue for your food supply to be under the control of a different country. I guess since I'm being downvoted there must be quite a few.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to read up on why the subsidies were started in the first place because you're obviously clueless. The rest of your argument is laden with all sorts of cognitive dissonance. Subsidies are given for things like food because if a society doesn't of have food it's a really bad thing so the government props up the industry in bad times (in this case during the Great Depression) and we don't starve. It's…

Yeah, you should definitely read up on how farming subsidies came about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_of_the_Uni... Food got so stupidly cheap it makes no sense to grow it in the US anymore. So farmers demanded that people in cities pay for their lifestyles out of our taxes. And then they go around being entitled about it. I've had enough of farm welfare queens. Get farmers off of welfare and let…

>I've had enough of farm welfare queens. Get farmers off of welfare and let us import food from places that can grow it competitively. If we can't make up the other 85% from somewhere else, that's great, then US farmers will show that they can grow food at a reasonable place without welfare.

>I never said subsidies aren't necessary: I don't know how you can infer that point from what I wrote.

Didn't you just tell us that you weren't arguing against subsidies and then you reply with that? Make your mind up you're all over the place. Sounds like I inferred correctly.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#417
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> violate more and more American values and American freedoms By this the folks in eastern Oregon are criticizing Democratic Gov. Brown for her approach to the pandemic: you know, normal things like closing restaurants and churches, requiring masks indoors, etc.

Ok, so say that. Or connect them to "American Values" concretely somehow. Because right now they are just saying their opponents are "un-American" which means whatever it needs to mean without actually saying anything of substance.

> Ok, so say that. Or connect them to "American Values" concretely somehow.

The 1st amendment granting freedom to assemble? Free exercise of religion? The supreme court agreed when it struck down New York's and California's bans on religious gatherings, which also affected Oregon. So broadly speaking, these are correct by the highest authority on 'American'.

Perhaps this doesn't come to mind when you hear 'American values', but why would these counties care? You are almost certainly not their intended audience.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#418
post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

>My personal believe is presently, for lack of data that I can digest, that the far right is probably focused around emotions Both sides have appeals to emotion and appeals to logic in their platform. For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right, because, in their opinion, the gover…

> what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'?

Uninsured, underinsured, or people with high deductibles are much, much more likely to let a health issue linger for much longer than someone who gets free (to them) healthcare. If an issue lingers, getting worse and worse, it may eventually reach the point where it forces them out of the workforce; they stop paying taxes, they stop purchasing commercial goods which drive the economy, they stop buying new cars, etc. (on an individual basis, this is rare, but compounded by 40 million or so people it adds up to a lot of people not performing economic activity who would otherwise be making and spending money)

Free-for-me healthcare is better at providing preventative medicine than out-of-pocket healthcare. Preventative medicine is cheaper in absolute terms over the long term that remedial medicine, even if preventative medicine is much more common that remedial medicine. If remedial medicine removes a person from the work force, that costs the entire GDP a worker.

It is better for all of us -- in purely economic terms -- to have a worker wearing a government issued back brace, taking government issued anti-inflammatory drugs, and participating in government sponsored physical therapy than having a non-worker have back surgery on an insurance plan that spreads the cost among all of that insurer's other customers instead of producing widgets in the factory.

I might not speak for that many people on the left, but I personally support anti-poverty programs as a general rule not because I care about the plight of humanity or whatever, (fuck 'em) but because taxing people and spending those tax dollars on anti-poverty programs improve my overall quality of life more than just letting us keep the money. Every poor person, every homeless person, needs to have tax dollars devoted to them in terms of police and emergency services. Two years ago someone smashed my car's window, stole a $20 backpack with $40 worth of gym clothes, costing me a $500 deductible to replace the window and fix the e-brake. Pretty sure if that asshole had a better education, was given free tradeschool or college they wouldn't have smashed my window.

We, as a society, have decided that we'd rather have a pound of cure than an ounce of prevention. In a dozen ways. And that's fucking stupid.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#419
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

The need for many government programs (money spent on enforcing hollywood copyright) and the tax rules that create corporate wealth but cost other areas must be considered. The midwest could do away with many expensive budget items but are forced to pay a share. The wealth of the nation could flip if heavy import duties were imposed forcing a manufacturing back inhouse. Things are the way they are because the powerfu…

> The need for many government programs (money spent on enforcing hollywood copyright)

Okay, I'll bite: what government programs would you categorize as "money spent on enforcing Hollywood copyright"?

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