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Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

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Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High power batteries aren't like high power engines. They're built on the same production lines. High power engines prioritize power over cost; high power batteries just prioritize it over capacity. It's not challenging to make a cheap, small battery that can provide 200 kW. It just happens that it hasn't been prioritized. A provable example: 1,826 Sony VTC4 18650 cells will push 200 kW continuously. That's only 14 k…

If you are wiring all 1826 cells in parallel, that means you need 1826 battery controllers to achieve reasonable life and reliability. Plus the hassle and cost of using bus bars instead of wires. And it means that the battery module output is 3.6V at an insane amperage and needs a massive transformer for a reasonable voltage.

> If you are wiring all 1826 cells in parallel, that means you need 1826 battery controllers to achieve reasonable life and reliability.

NB that I'm an electrical engineer and have built many batteries before, including from 18650s. First off, it is absolutely not necessary to have so many controllers; cell-level controllers are only used in the cheapest batteries. High-quality batteries will match cells individually and switch them in groups, which reduces the losses from running a bunch of parallel circuitry. This is not really different from simply using larger cells, as long as you can match them sufficiently well.

Cell-level BMS is very cheap as a result, for example this single cell chip that costs 7 cents each: https://lcsc.com/product-detail/PMIC-Battery-Management_HY22...

> Plus the hassle and cost of using bus bars instead of wires.

Only if you're using 18650s; if you are using prismatic cells you just solder or crimp the tabs to the HV supply. If you're using small-format cells, you would typically used stamped sheet current carriers rather than busbars.

> And it means that the battery module output is 3.6V at an insane amperage and needs a massive transformer for a reasonable voltage.

It certainly does not, because batteries are DC and you do not use transformers to convert their voltage. Transformers require you to convert to AC and back, but you can use an inductor ~100x smaller by using one of the many "boost" topologies. The basic idea is that you only need to convert to AC, and you don't need to rectify back to DC. You chop the high-current DC up very finely, then store 1-3 cycles in a very small inductor. If the inductor is sized just right, it will drain out current that is very close to DC.

Naturally though you would really want to operate between the 245 volts of the Mirai's battery or the 650 volts of the Mirai's fuel stack. That would be something between a 68s27p pack and a 180s10p pack. That's far more efficient. You can still have cell-level BMS for every single cell- that IC I linked above is daisy-chainable, meaning it does not need a real 0v ground reference. It's perfectly happy working at whatever voltages on the two ends of the particular cell its connected to. In this case I'd opt for something closer to 68s- the more cells you have in series, the more susceptible your design is to degraded performance over time.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, because you don't make hydrogen tanks out of materials that are susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement. In particular, pressurized automotive-size hydrogen tanks aren't made from metal at all, they are typically epoxy/kevlar/carbon fiber composites.

OOC, since you know what these tanks are made out of, what is the duty cycle/lifespan of those tanks? I was presented some info on Kevlar tanks for drones using fuel cells and remember thinking that the lifespan was very short.

Toyota certify and guarantee their tanks for 15 years, in production cars that you can go out and buy today.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For trucks and other heavy duty applications, liquid hydrogen starts to win out over pressurized. In LH2 tanks, the scaling becomes advantageous as you are optimizing against heat ingress, which goes down as 1/R when you increase the radius R.

Double walled high vacuum tanks that vent hydrogen gas if left unused for less than day and empty themselves after 10 days. Liquid hydrogen at -253c that is more energy intensive to make than high pressure. Not sure I see that being practical.

This information is just wrong. Air Liquide built automotive size LH2 tanks using multilayer insulation in the early 2000s that had 3 days of autonomy (time before first venting) and 3% per day boil-off after that.

For trucks where you need bigger tanks, both autonomy and boil-off rate improve by themselves due to the square-cube-law. And you can use the boil-off to charge the batteries in your hybrid electric powertrain, run auxiliary systems etc.

The LH2 trucks currently under planning have sophisticated fuel management systems where the driver inputs where she will stop and for how long, and the truck will optimize LH2 consumption and battery SoC before arriving at the stop point.

As for LH2 versus compressed: do you actually know how energy demanding a hydrogen compression train is? Compressing a low molecular weight gas to 700 bar is just fundamentally inefficient.

At the scale required for mass adoption of hydrogen fuels, both compression and liquefaction are talking 6-8 kWh/kg. For comparison the energy content in hydrogen itself is 33 kWh/kg. So naturally there is great interest in recovering as much as possible of that work before consumption.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from some freak events that happen every 50 years -50C doesn't _really_ happen anywhere settled in Canada. Even a place like Inuvik, the coldest temp ever recorded was -56.7C but only for a few minutes... in 1968. Edmonton gets a few nights where it can get below -40C every once in a while, but it's not common and again, it's not all night. Frankly it just sounds like he's confusing actual temperature with wind…

Fort McMurray Alberta. Not exactly the end of the earth. It is often colder than the far north because it is far from the ocean. May 19th today. There is snow on the ground. Every year there is a week or two of -40, not wind-chill, temperature. Nobody who actually lives in the north misunderstands wind-chill.

Yeah. I have been to Fort Mac many times, and lived in Prince George for 6 years. Fort Mac is kind of the end of the earth. But I know how hard it is to manage ICE cars in that kind of cold. Plug in the block heater. Leave the engine running when at the store. Carry deicer always. Fractured windshields. Ice on the inside of the windshield. Cracked dashes. Flat batteries. Hard starts due to bad fuel/air mixtures. And let's also include bad handling, because you don't really know how bad ICE cars are on actual ice until you've driven a good AWD EV like any Dual Motor Tesla.

All of this is better with EVs. Yeah, you basically will end up going from plugin to plugin so that the battery doesn't freeze up hard, but in those conditions you do anyway. The level of comfort and drivability provided by a Tesla Model Y will easily exceed any gas car or truck today. Why? Because the car will always be warm and ready. The traction control is 10x better. The car can pre-melt the ice. If you're lucky enough to have a garage, well you can pre-heat while the car is inside the garage. The list goes on and on. The main problem for the Model Y is the frameless door means the window has to be defrosted before you can get in. But you will, of course, do that from the comfort of wherever you are.

Frankly, Cybertruck is going to absolutely crush this. The range really meets the needs of the far north. Tesla already has a supercharger in Edmonton, and they have deployments planned for Prince George and some locations on hwy 16. This is really going to open up a lot of territory. EVs are made for the north, excepting the range.

Gas cars in the north actually suck pretty bad, except that they can handle those day-long commutes. That clock is seriously ticking, and for many cases, is already up.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#415

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

The one thing H has going is quicker fills at the pump, right? Being low on joules is a pain when you're going to work in the morning, but it's a royal pain if you have to wait a half hour to charge.

Unless your work is 300km away, that’s not true. Two minutes = 50km at a supercharger, and for that use you can slow charge at home.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Double walled high vacuum tanks that vent hydrogen gas if left unused for less than day and empty themselves after 10 days. Liquid hydrogen at -253c that is more energy intensive to make than high pressure. Not sure I see that being practical.

This information is just wrong. Air Liquide built automotive size LH2 tanks using multilayer insulation in the early 2000s that had 3 days of autonomy (time before first venting) and 3% per day boil-off after that. For trucks where you need bigger tanks, both autonomy and boil-off rate improve by themselves due to the square-cube-law. And you can use the boil-off to charge the batteries in your hybrid electric powert…

This is the BMW tank I got those figures from which looks to be manufactured by Air Liquide [1]:

"To stay a liquid, hydrogen must be cooled and maintained at cryogenic temperatures of, at warmest, −253 °C (20.1 K; −423.4 °F). When not using fuel, the Hydrogen 7’s hydrogen tank starts to warm and the hydrogen starts to vaporize. Once the tank’s internal pressure reaches 87 psi, at roughly 17 hours of non-use, the tank will safely vent the building pressure. Over 10–12 days, it will completely lose the contents of the tank because of this"

At that temperature even sloshing around adds enough energy to heat and cause venting much sooner another reason its not great for mobile use.

Looks like Air Liquide made a different one that you are quoting perhaps an improvement, still high vacuum double walled, so you lose all your fuel in a month instead, thats progress.

This shows liquefaction to be about twice as energy intensive as compression (1.3 vs 3.4 kWh/kg theoretical 6 vs 13 kWh/kg actual) [2] So please point me to better info.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

2. https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/9013_energy_requirement...

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#417
post #102
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because electrolysis is highly inefficient Actually it's pretty efficient. According to wikipedia, efficiency ranges from 70% for the cheaper method, to 80% with more expensive catalysts. Theoretical efficiency is 94%.

> Actually it's pretty efficient. Electrolysis is only a small factor. It's all of the other required bits that makes Hydrogen so inefficient. Transportation, building up pressure, etc. Hydrogen if you compare things simply is more efficient than gas/diesel. However, gas/diesel is pumped out of the ground. Meaning, a lot of the energy needs for gas/diesel are already there.

I was only commenting on electrolysis, I did not make any statement about hydrogen power in general. However, now that you brought it up, the other issues that you mention are very surmountable:

- Transport. You can either transport hydrogen via pipelines or simply produce it via electrolysis in-place. You have to get the electricity to the destination somehow, so this doesn't really differ between electric and hydrogen cars.

- Building up pressure. Energy required to build up pressure is related to how much the volume is reduced (force x distance and all that...) Conveniently water is almost incompressible, so you can raise the water to the desired pressure cheaply before you electrolyse it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-pressure_electrolysis says this can be done at 97% efficiency.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Hydrogen bomb” is a little exaggerated. But to your detractors: “More than a gasoline bomb, hopefully. Gasoline is more dangerous.” Citation needed. How is gasoline more dangerous? While gasoline is very dangerous, gasoline is a liquid and will not burn until vaporized; Gasoline is dangerous because it vaporizes quickly. H2 is already a gas and has a ridiculously low spark energy. Furthermore H2 is under pressure. G…

I work with a guy who was involved in a near miss incident with these cannisters. They are not risk free, although you could argue that the accidents are rare and potentially worth the risk? https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/1201/gas-bus-explos... https://www.ctif.org/news/cause-stockholm-cng-bus-explosion-... https://hal-ineris.archives-ouvertes.fr/ineris-00976180/docu...

“ although you could argue that the accidents are rare and potentially worth the risk?”

I agree. I don’t know if they’re technologically feasible at the price point necessary to put them in a few billion cars. But this “safety” obsession has gotten old.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current production methods use natural gas, specifically methane. Animal droppings will never supply enough methane to be a significant source of energy. The goal is to eventually produce hydrogen from water, through electrolysis. We have tech for this, but it's very expensive compared to our methane methods. Current electrolyzers are used for industrial applications. Spain is currently planning a huge deployment of…

Animal droppings are not our primary source of methane. Not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic. Electrolysis is expensive and energy inefficient. It is unlikely to be a primary source of hydrogen unless there is some breakthrough. If the limiting factor is clean electricity production, it makes sense to use it more efficiently with a BEV than it does to use it inefficiently with a HFCV.

The comment I was replying to said two odd, incorrect things: 1) water is our primary source of hydrogen (it isn't), and 2) that people were researching animal droppings as a source of hydrogen. Though people are looking for biogas to be a replacement for fossil-natural gas, there won't be enoug my for that, and certainly using it for steam methane reformation to hydrogen would be a poor use for biogas.

Hydrogen is an essential industrial input and feedstock for many processes, including production of fertilizer in the form of ammonia. So we will be producing hydrogen for that, without a doubt.

It is estimated that by 2030 or so that electrolyzers will be as cheap as steam methane reformation (SMR), with or without carbon capture on the SMR. We will see if that prediction pans out! The IEA has put approximately 850GW of hydrogen production as a feasibly goal by 2030 as part of their plan for keeping climate warming at 1.5C, with half of that from electrolyzers. This may be fairly plausible, as Europe has mandated 40GW of electrolyzers by 2030, and there are currently 154GW of hydrogen electrolyzers in the pipeline:

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/growing-ambit...

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#420
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs are great if you are pulling heavy loads across hills, as you get your energy back going downhill (at least large parts of it). The torque also rather is an advantage of EVs. Diesel engines are popular because they are more efficient than gasoline engines and if you have continuous high loads, that adds up. Guess what is much more efficient than Diesel engines? Electric engines! And they are way more efficient th…

An electric semi's battery weight alone makes them not viable imo. I think it's a good idea to ignore the endless Tesla sales hype and brand reinforcement and focus on the basic logic and physics. Musk is as fake as his hair imo and spends most of his time being very misleading while aggressively selling theoretical future projects. I grew up in the UK with electric milk floats, a practical use of EV's for short, qui…

Why would you think a semi's battery weight would make it not viable? If you calculate what the batteries would weight and subtract the weight of the engine, transmission and of course fuel in a full tank, you get to about 2 tons more for the battery powered semi, if not less. That is a small reduction of the maximum load capacity.
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