On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#411

Post by Loughla » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #409

Loughla wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're being down-voted, you're right. I haven't met anyone, even in the insanely left and progressive university circles that I run in, who advocate for equality in outcome. It's equality in opportunity that's important. It's about letting 'your freedom as an individual to choose your own destiny' actually be 'free' from the start and not constrained by social mores, ingrained biases or discriminati…

My impression is that progressives and conservatives seem to disagree about what constitutes "outcome" vs "opportunity". For example, imagine a tech company found that 20% of it's employees were female and 80% were male, and decided to try to change this by instituting a new program exclusively focused on recruiting women. A progressive might argue that this program gives women a better "opportunity" to succeed, wher…

That seems like a very fair observation. I think I am inclined to agree with that assessment.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#412

Post by gautamcgoel » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #128

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #17

There is a lot to unpack here, and it is difficult to know where to begin. I had a friend who was a pastor who lamented he didn't like that his yearly board game get-together with his other [often pastor] friends often ended up discussing their dead bedrooms. I have no idea how these dynamics have come to be so common, even taking into account the usual ebbs and flows in relationships. I don't know if this problem oc…

Religious couples tend to have the most fulfilling sex lives. Conservative religious couples have the best: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7060099/Highly-reli... Myself, as a highly conservative married man, my findings confirm the daily mail article, esp. when I look at the sex lives of my married friends who were more libertine in their youth. EDIT: A few theories: 1. My wife is not on birth control, whic…

Thank you for sharing this perspective. Honestly, it was really interesting to hear about "traditional" sex, and make me realize just how unnatural most sex has become.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#413

Post by sjg007 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #351

Quarrelsome wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that recent switches to a "pick up style" of dating app (e.g. Tindr) exacerbates this problem.

For sure. Most heterosexual women would prefer sex every 10 days with a very sexually appealing man who is having sex with 9 other women than having sex every day with an average-looking exclusive Schlub. The latter was their life under the proscription of extramarital sex but Tinder allows them the former.

Is there a research study on this? I'm not sure I buy into the Don Juan hypothesis.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#414

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #273

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

This is an opinion, not a fact.

It's a generalization about social trends. These traits often show on a bell curve, with some outliers on each side, but those outliers don't mean that the trend isn't real.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#415

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #310

landryraccoon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man this thread sure must be depressing if you're single. Single? That's your problem, that your single. Go get a relationship and be happy! Way to dogpile on people when they're down. I say enjoy being single. If a relationship happens, good for you, but don't listen to people that say you're damaged / worse off / going down the drain because you're single. They're just jealous you can travel and play video games wh…

> Way to dogpile on people when they're down. > They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =) This comment comes off defensive and hypocritical to me, rather than contributing to the conversation. You're basically saying we shouldn't talk about good things if some people don't have those good things; and also screw people with good things because they're actually jealous of the have-n…

I have been single, then married, then single again. I can tell that for me single is better. So for each one its own. It irks me when someone tells other people what is good for them.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#416

Post by piva00 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

schnevets wrote: post #245

colanderman wrote: post #154

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends, and I sincerely believe the problem is the western world's secretly coy perception of sex. There is a superficial surface level that is extremely wrong (for example, Successful people have sex, the most successful people have the hottest sex with the hottest partners; Sex isn't about planning it's about letting the desire overcome…

> I think this is a very Americanized perspective, though, so I would be especially interested in hearing perspectives from other cultures.

I agree this is very Americanised, I can chime from two different perspectives and cultures: Brazil and Sweden.

Brazil is... Very Americanised, I believe that the same issues the USA has with sex are present in Brazil, it's expressed in some different ways but the underlying issues are more-or-less the same. Even though Brazil is seen through a very sexualised image from the outside, it's still a very conservative society where women are shamed for having sex.

Now for Sweden: I don't think anything you said really applies here, people are very open about sex, parents just consider it a natural thing and will allow their teenagers to have sex in their house, I heard stories from friends who had breakfast with the parents of a hook up after a night out, etc. There is very little taboo about sex here, even though not everyone is open to talk about it, the vast majority is completely fine with people having sex.

Which brings me to a point I don't really grasp how it happens, my sexual experiences here showed me that women suffer some similar issues as the women in Brazil: lots of them don't have good sex, not even with their partners, most of the times not due to a lack of communication but a lack of understanding from men. I've heard from girlfriends similar behaviour from men here as in Brazil, not the aggressive type but the lack of care about their needs, a lack of interest and curiosity in sex itself, to improve it, etc.

And then I don't know if this is something global and most men in the world are really that bad sex partners, it was really surprising to hear from Scandinavian women some of the same issues that girlfriends in Brazil went through. Not even counting the abuse, in Brazil it's much more extreme but I was surprised by how many of my girlfriends here had at least one instance of rape or sexual abuse, usually from partners.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#417

Post by xboxnolifes » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

Trasmatta wrote: post #311

Ntrails wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actively not enjoying single life is a reasonable state of being. Not desirable, but not a mental health issue. Being measurably happier with a partner in your life is a positive outcome, indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

But what I'm responding to is the idea that if you're only ever happy when your partner is there, there's likely something wrong. I didn't even really bring up single life. > indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother) What do you mean by this? Why bother with what? (As an aside, I actually don't think that being in a relationship is something that all people need to strive for.)

> > indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

> What do you mean by this? Why bother with what?

Why bother finding a partner. If you aren't measurably happier with a partner, why go through the effort of finding one?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#418

Post by 2lwxxtj » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #278

tachyonbeam wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell the…

> the existence of so many "incels" Curious, are there are more of these now than in the past? I suspect there were more decades ago because of more cultural taboos about premarital relationships. What's different now? That these folks are angry about it?

Yes, there are more now than in the past. https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/figure1newlymaninc...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#419

Post by kar5pt » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

I believe that there are a lot of sexless/loveless men who aren't violent or misogynistic. The problem is nobody pays attention to them. They only become visible to society when they say and do violent, misogynistic things. Then people say that it must be their fault for being violent and misogynist.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#420

Post by matheusmoreira » Tue, May 04, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #19

edgyquant wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah people who say this are so wrong, companionship and a significant other is a required for a fulfilled life for a majority of people. We evolved to have this, and most people need it. You shouldn’t depend on one for happiness, but there is nothing wrong or weird about longing for one.

On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.

> it's on you to improve yourself

Incels call this "maxxing". It doesn't seem to be particularly effective for them.

> Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.

Why? Reducing inequality in dating seems like a fair goal to me. People become incels because everyone else rejects them. If that doesn't change, the number of incels will keep growing.