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Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#411

Post by jeofken »

Talanes wrote: post #406
jeofken wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taken to its conclusion should this not include every living being? Why not children, or animals? Ageism and speciesism indeed. My point is that while the majority of Swiss cantons decided to not have gender restrictions on voting, they allowed Apenzell to keep being the weird one, and in response the people of Apenzell don’t force their way onto others. If I don’t want my neighbour to tell me how to run my household…

Every time you say "the people of Apenzell" you really mean roughly ~50% of the voting age population. Would you make this same argument if only one person was allowed to vote in Apenzell? What about when that one person starts rounding up the people in Apenzell he doesn't like and imprisoning them?

When you say “voting age population”, you really mean roughly 70% of all residents?

You and I probably agree that a 12yo should not have the right to decide what the state should do with its might, but the argument is the same regarding how the legal voting population of this tiny state of 16k citizens decide to expand who gets to vote in their local elections.

What I say is that I’m impressed by the federal government of Switzerland for allowing even such a tiny group such self determination to select who can vote in local elections - until the UN forced them to conform in 1991 that is. I think this is why they don’t have civil wars when they disagree - they instead let others do their thing and the cantons run their competing systems simultaneously.

Regarding your question whether I would think it was ok to have a Swiss canton where local government was ran by one person, it’d be ridiculous but I would not think it’s right to use force to stop it, unless that local government hindered anyone from leaving. This is at least, as you have identified, the logical conclusion of the argument I am making, and the Swiss did until 1991. In reality no single person would likely run it well, and it would end up an economic disaster, and sooner or later change. Instead of coercion letting a hundred seeds grow, before separating the wheat from the chaff

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#412

Post by lolc »

tim333 wrote: post #380
wegwerfbenutzer wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a myth. These defenses you talk about were built partly with cheap material and therefore significantly less effective. This caused a major post-war corruption scandal. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, because Switzerland was actually more useful as a neutral state for Nazi Germany to exchange gold for commodities, for spying and Switzerland produced militiary equipment for Nazi Germany anyway.

Switzerland has also had a policy of armed neutrality since 1815 or before I think and the armed bit would probably be a headache for anyone invading.

The Nazis did plan an invasion. See Operation Tannenbaum[0].

Switzerland didn't end up getting divided between Germany and Italy thanks to the Red Army hurtling more humans west than the Wehrmacht could supply bullets east. Swiss munitions production wouldn't be risked.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#413

Post by hypnotortoise »

Hopefully the next time Swiss people will have a chance to vote for an electronic ID (legislative process takes time, so thinking in timeframe of 3-5y), the solution will contain some parts of a self-sovereign identity / DID [1] with the state as original issuer and trusted multiparty keyholder in case the self-sovereign is to hard for folks. It would fit quite well with their other decentralized systems.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_identifiers

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#414

Post by random5634 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #204
random5634 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior delivery is not generally a major consideration in a govt RFP award. This is in part because no score is ever released related to prior delivery (ie, no central assessment record), and attempts to include it get tied up in process issues (ie, rights to respond, litigation) or claims it is subjective. It also overlaps with govt agency disfunction around scope and requirements and no govt manager wants a failed p…

RFPs frequently reference past activity. That’s just not accurate. The reality is that you only hear about failed projects. When was the last time that you heard about taxes not being collected or welfare payments not being paid or SNAP cards not being refilled? It’s all background activity, and those awful contractor companies are often responsible for material aspects of delivery.

But there is rarely a determination that past activity resulted in a failure or success. You usually just have to show that you have had contracts for past activity (and yes, have not been disbarred etc- which happens very very rarely). In many cases big is good here, lots of contracts so looks "safe".

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#415

Post by KirillPanov »

dheera wrote: post #410
KirillPanov wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't actually buy a house and remain anonymous unless you set up some shell company which I assume is expensive It is not. Under $100/year in most states. > and probably has tax consequences. It doesn't. The LLC has no income (assuming you're not renting that "decoy house"), so there's nothing to report to the IRS. > doesn't even really solve the problem of having to give your address to someone if you want an…

Is there anyone solving this problem for a fee? Also, what do people usually do if they don't have a residential address? (specifically for example people who live in RVs or off-grid but maintain a modern lifestyle with driver licenses and credit cards and all)

> people who live in RVs or off-grid but maintain a modern lifestyle with driver licenses and credit cards and all

There aren't as many of those as you might think, and they've all had this problem in a big way since the PATRIOT act nonsense happened.

Most of them give a relative's address as their residential address.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#416

Post by herbst »

crazypython wrote: post #396
herbst wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that is the worst example dig deeper :) Sennerburm for example, basically legal child slavery totally normal in europe until not to long ago. And yes switzerland took a bit longer than our neighboors

> Sennerburm Google returned zero results– did you misspell it? Google usually can't find documents for misspelled rare words

Yeah i missspelled a dialect word, cant google it either. Try 'Verdingkinder' i dont think there is a real translation for that

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#417

Post by Ericson2314 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #279
Ericson2314 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that's a good thing. Balkanizing ID info between a gazillion government databases as we do in the US just creates inefficiency, and raises the thirst for more intensive surveillance to counter the inefficiency with which the data is used. (Consider the talk after 9/11 on the FBI and CIA not sharing info, and then we get the Patriot Act.)

> Balkanizing ID info between a gazillion government databases as we do in the US just creates inefficiency It improves security through the reduction in the scope of harm and eliminating single points of failure. If someone compromises your Candy Crush login they can't drain your bank account. > and raises the thirst for more intensive surveillance to counter the inefficiency with which the data is used. (Consider t…

> It improves security through the reduction in the scope of harm and eliminating single points of failure. If someone compromises your Candy Crush login they can't drain your bank account.

"Security through ad-hoc redundancy" is going to replace one possible-good auth systems with a gazillion shity ones that no one has the budget or interest to secure. It's a greater attack service.

> It improves security through the reduction in the scope of harm and eliminating single points of failure. If someone compromises your Candy Crush login they can't drain your bank account.

No, by all accounts FBI and CIA still hate each other and keep secrets. What we got is more surveillance (NSA dragnets), not more efficient use of the data they already have.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#418

Post by Ericson2314 »

jariel wrote: post #231
Ericson2314 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that's a good thing. Balkanizing ID info between a gazillion government databases as we do in the US just creates inefficiency, and raises the thirst for more intensive surveillance to counter the inefficiency with which the data is used. (Consider the talk after 9/11 on the FBI and CIA not sharing info, and then we get the Patriot Act.)

Maybe the opposite though - having a 'single, semi-competent authority and source of control/failure/security' is probably not a good reality for security and resiliency. Ironically, there's a >50% chance that the solution will entail 1) privately hosted platforms like AWS and 2) privately hosted support services and 3) privately written core modules (McKinsey business strategy, Accenture implemented etc.) and 4) at…

> Ironically, there's a >50% chance that the solution will entail 1) privately hosted platforms like AWS and 2) privately hosted support services and 3) privately written core modules (McKinsey business strategy, Accenture implemented etc.) and 4) at least some privately contracted IT people to manage the solution.

That would be in the US, with it's shit managment and governance culture of no expertise being required. The Wwiss are explicitly rejecting such willy-nilly privatization; did you read the article?

> There's no reason to believe the gov. will make a more robust, scalable and secure solution that other entities.

Again this is US ideology about US government. In another places they have something closer to actual democracy, a robust civil service, and an awareness that some things are too important to risk the profit motive sliding to rent-seeking.

> A better approach might even be...

I actually agree with you here. The next step after centrally planning how electronic identity should work is to realize many things don't need to require an "official one true personhood" surrogate key, and can make due with something weaker and more friendly to anonymity. The same functioning society that can figure out devolved cantons and federated cooperatives would be excellently prepared to figure that out.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#419

Post by Krasnol »

_v7gu wrote: post #358
Krasnol wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, now they'll have to stay at home again...which is what the fascists who brought that in actually wanted. They just don't want to see them on the streets. It's kinda sad that so many supported this and I'm happy that this wide ban would (probably...) be unconstitutional in Germany.

Someone not letting their wife out because burqua is banned is outright abuse, and should be dealt with that way. It isn't even a common piece of clothing in the majority of muslim countries. (+1 point to horseshoe theory: apparently islam forbids women to go out without burquas according to both extreme leftists and rightists, bu noone else)

How should you deal with it when you're not even seeing it and can't even prove that the woman is being held in her home against her will if her will is already so weak that she'd wear a burka? This is what I meant: you just make the problem disappear from the public with that measure. You don't solve anything and make it actually worse for the women.

I don't even know how you get the leftists in there but at this point I'm too afraid to ask...

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#420

Post by thitcanh »

stefano wrote: post #19
thitcanh wrote: post #4

This sounds like the Italian digital ID: required by the government, managed by multiple companies. It’s called SPID. It’s usually free, but there’s also certified email (PEC) that costs from 5€ to 30€ per year. Also required by the government in some cases and also offered by a small number of companies. Does Estonia offer their digital IDs directly?

As an alternative to SPID you can also use your national electronic ID card, which is issued by the state without the involvement of private companies.

If a service uses SPID, you need SPID. The SPID login screen doesn’t offer “National ID card” as an option.

Some services may offer alternative logins, but my guess is that they’ll be phased out like INPS is phasing out PIN-based logins.

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