people need to realize they're paid what they're worth (and come on... google pays VERY well). unionizing so you don't work in environments bad for your health is a thing. unionizing so you can extort money from your employer, however, is a slippery slope that leads to a few people at the top of the heap causing lots of trouble for the company, probably its members (dues... or else!) and those union leaders get nice houses on ski slopes. best of luck google!
A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's pretty hard to claim that the reason there are bad teachers is because it's hard to fire them because they're unionized. There are a lot of potential reasons: - The pay is crap - The "prestige" is crap - The barrier to entry is low In Finland, for example, there are excellent teachers because the profession is treated as on par with doctors. I don't think it's fair to blame unions for this difference in…
Teacher pay in the US is pretty good, if you take into account hours actually worked and benefits, especially very generous retirement ones.
Look for data on this and you’ll learn the opposite. Teaching requires a master’s degree in most cases but in many states that’s only getting you pay in the $40-50k range (yes, housing is cheaper in the boonies. No, cars, consumer goods, food, medications, etc. are not.)
A popular propaganda claim is that teachers work fewer hours based on the hope that reader doesn’t know teaching includes more than direct instructional time. Summer breaks are shorter now and have things like mandatory training for required professional development, and the few weeks most teachers have off are not enough to make up for the long hours during the school year and inability to take time off when school is in session.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#413The prevailing fixation seems to be on how unionization would help the highly-compensated engineers, when the people who need and would benefit most from unionization are the TVCs, who aren't considered Alphabet employees, don't get benefits, are regularly excluded (from all-hands, mailing lists, even affiliating with Google on LinkedIn). Suppose a barista's phone dies. Employees are not permitted by policy to chip i…
Unions would also add additional hurdles to young engineers looking to join or move up within the company.
We like to think of unions as protecting members against the corporation, but traditionally unions also protect members against outsiders looking to take their jobs. In this case, those outsiders are young people breaking into the industry or trying to move up the ranks within Google. Before going all-in on unions, consider if you’re ready to start making it harder for Googlers to get fired or make it more difficult for someone to get promoted based on their work rather than seniority (number of years worked).
At this point it’s not even clear what the union is demanding or what they expect to change. Google already has industry leading pay and benefits, as well as a reputation for some of the most reasonable working hours in the industry.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#414very good news
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…
> but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. Google made something like 300,000 in profit per employee in 2019. There are regular complaints about benefits and pay multipliers being cut back. Why shouldn't workers seek to capture as much of their labor as possible? People don't seem to complain when businesses do that.
Employee compensation is tied to profit in the form of RSUs. A decline in profit would substantially decrease the value of those RSUs and thus compensation. You can't just decrease profit in a vacuum and hand that revenue to employees, you have to consider the second-order effects.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…
Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…
It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead.
Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing.
If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you.
Something few people seem to understand about massive companies is that they employ some of the most niche specialists imaginable because they're literally the only business that needs those skills. Working you way up and getting more and more specialized can be very lucrative, but also very limiting in the number of employers who want your skillset. Leaving usually comes with a big step down in terms of money and title. You're essentially dropping back down to where you were before you specialized. It's not hard to imagine a lot of senior engineers at Google might feel a bit trapped there.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#417When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…
Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…
What can be done and what will be done are two entirely different concepts, though. What makes you confident that this time it will be different or that this union would be immune from the same issues that occur in other unions?
If we’ve reached the point where the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions, that’s not encouraging.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#418One difficulty I see with the mission statement ( https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen... ) is that it is very broad, and contains a lot of progressive values that are likely not as widely shared as the authors might expect. One might or might not agree with these values, but it is going to be significantly harder to start steering the company's product direction and social responsibility effo…
This is exactly why I would never join a tech union. Just read their mission statement: this is about enforcing political goals via any power source they can get their hands on. Much like a lot of recent codes of conduct in open source projects.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#419Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…
I have to say, this is a really American view of unions. Here in Europe, I know a lot of people who love their company and are still part of an union.
First of, yeah, you could "just go" if you don't like what the company is offering. But it is not a reality for a lot of people, even in the tech industry. Leaving your job is not that easy. And it encourage a race to the bottom. With no union to negotiate, the negotiation will always be unbalanced in the favour of the employee since you are negotiating as an individual vs. a organization. Its way, way easier for company to scare you and keep wage low when their is no union to back you up.
Also, union can help you when you have a manager or any higher-up that makes your work life hard. I know a lot of company who try to sweep complain under the rug for one reason or another. But when the union get involved, they just can't, they have to deal with it.
Finally, employee are stake holder in a company. A lot feel involved and responsible in the company direction and future. You can't just excluded them because they are not shareholder. I mean, you can, but that will lead to a strong feeling of alienation. Union help with that, and I know some people who are part of a union just for this: They love their job and the company they work for, so they want to have a say in where the company is going.
Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize
#420When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…
There is plenty of evidence that I've seen firsthand in municipal government of unions protecting and promoting incompetent IT talent. It doesn't all fall to @#$& solely because government tech is often very slow to change, so mediocre workers can train on very specific applications and not need much continuing ed. I scarcely ever met one that would get hired at either a FAANG or a tech startup. I will qualify this b…
Given the amount of incompetent talent I've seen promoted without a union because they cozy up to management I have a really hard time believing the picture would be any worse with them.
Meritocracy is orthogonal to unionization, I think, though I doubt there's an employer in the world that doesn't believe that their decisions are entirely meritocratic.
The argument "[institution]* tends to towards corruption therefore we shouldn't have [institution]" is a logical fallacy in all cases, since all human institutions tend towards corruption but we still need them.
* replace [institution] with government, government department, police, corporations, unions, etc. and the fallacy remains the same.