California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement • Hacker News Board

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#411

Post by ghaff » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #327

wpietri wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some consumers will still tend to blame Sally's Piping Hot Burgers when their burger arrives soggy and cold A friend who manages an excellent restaurant says that this is indeed a problem. One of their signature dishes is fried chicken, and it is glorious. They optimize everything about the meal with the understanding that it's 15-30 seconds from the kitchen to the table. But those are the wrong choices for 15-30 m…

Wouldn't this be a problem for any takeout order? I know some restaurants don't offer takeout for this reason.

Some foods definitely work better than others. As others have noted, pizza usually does. And Asian stir fry type dishes are mostly pretty decent. Basic fried chicken (or rotisserie chicken) are fine too actually. They're not totally top drawer fried chicken like you get at a good restaurant that specializes in it but it's pretty good heated up in the oven. Soups. Etc.

And then there are a lot of foods that just aren't going to be good. Basically, if it's something that either cold or that you would normally consider reheating in the oven or microwave it's probably OK. Otherwise, not.

And, as others have noted, take-out you have more control over. There are some sandwiches I'll order from a local place and pickup given that I know I'll be home in less than 10 minutes. I'd be less tempted if I knew it might be sitting in a delivery car for an hour.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#412

Post by 34679 » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #124

ramphastidae wrote: post #105

This is undeniably a good thing if you put yourself in the shoes of the restaurant. Imagine if someone went around impersonating your business online, leveraging the good name you have built for yourself over the decades. They create ads offering your expert development services, ostensibly competing with your existing website, but with intentionally slashed pricing and a ‘creatively’ misrepresented offering (aka gro…

The misrepresentation would seem to be the big thing. Someone, let's call them Joe, publishes a list of restaurants online with links to their menus and offers to deliver for the price of the order with tip plus a $10 delivery fee. And has a clear disclaimer that they're not affiliated with the businesses. That seems pretty unobjectionable. And how would the restaurant even know? [ADDED: Subject of course to any heal…

I should never be able to force Sally to make me a cheeseburger. Therefore, Sally should have the right refuse to sell to anyone. No maybe.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#413

Post by ianhorn » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #309

ghaff wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The misrepresentation would seem to be the big thing. Someone, let's call them Joe, publishes a list of restaurants online with links to their menus and offers to deliver for the price of the order with tip plus a $10 delivery fee. And has a clear disclaimer that they're not affiliated with the businesses. That seems pretty unobjectionable. And how would the restaurant even know? [ADDED: Subject of course to any heal…

> some consumers will still tend to blame Sally's Piping Hot Burgers when their burger arrives soggy and cold A friend who manages an excellent restaurant says that this is indeed a problem. One of their signature dishes is fried chicken, and it is glorious. They optimize everything about the meal with the understanding that it's 15-30 seconds from the kitchen to the table. But those are the wrong choices for 15-30 m…

Does delivery tend to be different from takeout in your experience? It does in mine. The gap between finishing prep and me eating it is much longer for delivery, except that the apps almost all lie about it. While your order is sitting there waiting for a driver for 10 minutes, they tell you, no way! It’s not our inability to get a driver there quickly! It’s the restaurant who is still wrapping up right now! If they even tell you that. Then they drop off a few other orders on the way. You end up with food you think came off the stove 13 minutes ago that actually came off like 40 minutes ago. And then you think it came out of the oven worse because the app puts all the blame and uncertainty on the restaurant.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#414

Post by save_ferris » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

rattray wrote: post #279

save_ferris wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But on the flip side, I've observed a lot of restaurant owners not having the time, energy, or know-how to set up even basic online things that could really boost their business. Isn't part of being a successful business knowing where to put your energy as a business owner? You're saying that restaurants don't necessarily have the ability to make the best decisions for their business, therefore they should be able…

> Isn't part of being a successful business knowing where to put your energy as a business owner? If you own a small restaurant... are you really in it to be a tycoon of industry? Or are you passionate about the food and the community? I know I want to spend as little time as possible thinking about sales and marketing, and just focus on improving my product and making my customers happy.

> I know I want to spend as little time as possible thinking about sales and marketing, and just focus on improving my product and making my customers happy.

That's fine and understandable, but you also have to weigh the risks of delegating those responsibilities to external parties that don't necessarily care about your success because they have thousands if not millions of customers. Not to mention the restaurants that don't want any part of the delivery platforms altogether because they don't like what they're seeing.

In an opt-out model, the restaurant has to take time to deal with (and possibly remove themselves) from a platform that didn't ask for their business, potentially dealing with upset customers along the way. Wasn't the whole point of this idea to reduce time and energy spent on these kinds of activities to focus on the food and the community? If you had no idea that you were on one of these platforms and an angry customer reaches out to you, how does that benefit the restaurant?

It's really strange to see a collectivist for-the-greater-good argument being applied in a business sense here because it's based on two incorrect underlying assumptions: that every business owner wants the same thing (automated marketing and logistics services handled by one provider), and that platforms will always act in the best interests of their users. As a hypothetical business owner, shouldn't I have the right to prevent delivery platforms from using my restaurant without my permission? Say I get a bad experience with a delivery platform once, and I remove myself. Now I have a keep a lookout for any other platform that wants to use my name, all because those platforms made the argument that they know what's best for the restaurants and then didn't measure up. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#415

Post by wskinner » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

DevKoala wrote: post #38

swyx wrote: post #15

always entertaining how regulation unintentionally acts to increase barriers to entry for incumbents. in this case closing the barn doors almost a decade after the horse left the stable. you couldn't pay politicians enough for the favors they perform in earnest. edit:to elaborate, the growth hacks of the likes of Doordash and Postmates doing exactly this got them their start, now it will be illegal to compete with th…

What do you mean? In this case small businesses were being abused by delivery apps. Once these apps captured the customers of the small business, they converted the customers to their alternative offering restaurant. This is a good piece of legislature unless I am missing something.

DoorDash and Postmates would deliver from every restaurant, whether or not they had a relationship with that restaurant. This helped them grow quickly. A DoorDash competitor that started today would not be able to grow that way because it is now illegal to deliver from a restaurant without the restaurant’s consent. DoorDash is already large and has a well known brand, so this doesn’t hurt them. It does hurt future competitors, for whom the cost of developing a relationship with every restaurant is cost prohibitive.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#416

Post by stanmancan » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

This is great news. One of my customers owns a small chain of pizza restaurants. One of the delivery apps kept hounding them to sign up, but they already offer delivery, so they repeatedly declined. Eventually the app listed them on the app without their permission, using their logo and everything, and set the prices lower than what it was sold for. Every time an order came in, someone from the app would call the store and place an order for pickup and then one of the drivers would pick it up.

Disgusting business practice.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#417

Post by lkbm » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #204

lkbm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? The practice involved is in response to the absolute garbage of misrepresentation of a restaurant's telephone number to be intercepted by your own call centre's. Sure, that's bad and that should be banned. But that's not the practice banned. What got banned is me paying someone to pick up my food for me. I could still run a website that misrepresents the restaurant's telephone number and intercepts your calls.…

That’s not what the law does. It addresses the problem GP pointed out, and it bans the service you’ve described as well. It also doesn’t forbid you from paying someone to pick your food up for you. Here’s the relevant text: > 22599. A food delivery platform shall not arrange for the delivery of an order from a food facility without first obtaining an agreement with the food facility expressly authorizing the food del…

That says that I can't arrange for delivery without approval to take orders and provide delivery. It doesn't imply that I need approval to take orders if I'm not providing delivery.

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#418

Post by bpicolo » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

rattray wrote: post #189

ramphastidae wrote: post #105

This is undeniably a good thing if you put yourself in the shoes of the restaurant. Imagine if someone went around impersonating your business online, leveraging the good name you have built for yourself over the decades. They create ads offering your expert development services, ostensibly competing with your existing website, but with intentionally slashed pricing and a ‘creatively’ misrepresented offering (aka gro…

IDK, this seems more like a mixed-bag to me on account of being opt-in instead of opt-out. Absolutely I agree that businesses should be able to easily opt out of being listed on a given delivery platform if/when it causes problems for them. But on the flip side, I've observed a lot of restaurant owners not having the time, energy, or know-how to set up even basic online things that could really boost their business.…

How is a business to reasonably identify all the different platforms listing their info without their permission? Opt out isn't a good model.

There's also a _ton_ of these businesses that aren't tech savvy. It's way too big an ask

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#419

Post by rattray » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #414

rattray wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't part of being a successful business knowing where to put your energy as a business owner? If you own a small restaurant... are you really in it to be a tycoon of industry? Or are you passionate about the food and the community? I know I want to spend as little time as possible thinking about sales and marketing, and just focus on improving my product and making my customers happy.

> I know I want to spend as little time as possible thinking about sales and marketing, and just focus on improving my product and making my customers happy. That's fine and understandable, but you also have to weigh the risks of delegating those responsibilities to external parties that don't necessarily care about your success because they have thousands if not millions of customers. Not to mention the restaurants…

> As a hypothetical business owner, shouldn't I have the right to prevent delivery platforms from using my restaurant without my permission?

> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We certainly agree on both of these counts!

Re: California law bans delivery apps from listing a restaurant without an agreement

#420

Post by ghaff » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

cforrester wrote: post #330

ashtonkem wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m incredibly perplexed why people do this. Even pre pandemic it was patently obvious to anyone who paid attention that certain foods just don’t deliver well. Before the internet became a thing, the only places that regularly offered delivery were pizza joints and Chinese food, because both of those survive delivery well! I ordered delivery burgers once, from a restaurant close by, and learned my lesson that burgers…

I think it's a matter of expectation more than anything. Someone who orders food from a restaurant might expect that the restaurant has recipes designed for delivery. I wouldn't expect a top quality restaurant burger when I order delivery, but I'd still be disappointed if it were a soggy mess instead of the 5-8/10 I've come to expect from decent delivery options.

One of the problems is that, with some exceptions, if a restaurant offers take-out at all, they probably offer their whole menu. If I look at the menu for my local Greek pizza place, I can pretty much guarantee you that their pizzas, Veal Parmesan, and salads are going to stand up to take-out (AFAIK you can't get delivery) better than their burgers, meatball subs, or calzones.