California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#411

Post by sizzle » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 11:57 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #251

mehrdadn wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... it's not this simple. The mechanism for overriding a government existing is one thing, but making it so easy to trigger for the most random things left and right is quite another. I'm not sure if you've seen the CA ballots, but casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person, partly due to the nuances involved in the topics (experts who've spent their lives studying these topics can easily disa…

> casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny! Direct voting is strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the o…

My elderly parents and all their neighbors got blanketed with mailers that showed am elderly couple on the cover and stated prop 22 was going stop senior citizens from getting their meds delivered to them. The is pure evil and totally legal to misrepresent the issues by pulling on voter's heartstrings. My parents were duped and they will win with these slimey deceitful tactics.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#412

Post by tomp » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 12:05 AM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #411

tomp wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny! Direct voting is strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the o…

My elderly parents and all their neighbors got blanketed with mailers that showed am elderly couple on the cover and stated prop 22 was going stop senior citizens from getting their meds delivered to them. The is pure evil and totally legal to misrepresent the issues by pulling on voter's heartstrings. My parents were duped and they will win with these slimey deceitful tactics.

Any such argument is an argument against democracy.

Which I think is a fair debate, but it’s a different debate than the one above (which is about keeping, yet improving democracy).

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#413

Post by VRay » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 4:31 AM UTC

koolba wrote: post #396

mepiethree wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, life is so much better now that we can exploit labor to get ubiquitous and cheap rides

I'm fine with raising the prices to something sustainable. There's no reason it has to be below minimum wage + the cost of maintaining the car. What I'm not okay with is going back to the only option being a oddly smelling yellow cab that will only pick you up in the profitable parts of the city and refuses to take you parts of the city they deem unprofitable on the return trip. I truly believe that Travis Kalanick h…

yeah, I hate Uber and Lyft more than most, but I have to admit that you're totally right about it being an unambiguous upgrade over taxi service

I used to get super angry every time I had to take a taxi in the Bay Area. Before I got in I'd say "OK, your credit card reader is working, right?" and they'd swear it is, and then wouldn't you know it? Somehow the machine broke down between the airport and my destination EVERY TIME. The drivers would pitch a hissy fit when I refused to pay cash, and then they'd manually take a print of my card or write down the number.

It cost something like $60 for a 20 minute ride, and they had the audacity to expect a huge tip on top of that. Fuck those guys.

I'm pretty sure they're all lying about their income and hiding it from the government to commit tax fraud. For a brief period before Uber took off, they'd even started using personal Square readers to charge credit cards instead of the official ones built into their cars.

That said, I'm willing to bet that society won't tolerate a return to how things used to be, even if Uber and Lyft leave the state after we shoot down Prop 22. There's such a vast gulf in price difference between a taxi and an uber that I'm sure we can reach a comfortable middle ground where drivers make a living wage without us living under a scumbag taxi rein of terror

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#414

Post by manquer » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 9:19 AM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #340

manquer wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bartenders, and waiters heavily dependent on tips. As non American visiting it is always taxing for me to figure what to tip. I am more accustomed to price including the waiters salary and rarely only tipping when service is truly exceptional. This is also the reason I and many others prefer ride shares, price is transparent and upfront, in traditional taxies the negotiations depends on your local knowledge, knowledg…

In regular taxis there is no negotiation. The meter says a number, you pay that number, and if the driver doesn't like it, that's their problem

You have only travelled in nice places then.

A standard practice in many many places to take the unfamiliar passenger for a ride, taking the longer route, or going in circles just to run up the meter.

While with gps and smartphones going in circles has come down, taking a different route, or other more subtle meter running happens still.

It can be a lot worse with straight up cheating too. I have seen souped up meters which are not directly connected to odometers etc.

I have also seen places where if you don't know the language and/or localite they will demand more than the meter and create a scene get nearby friends to support them.

When running late to airport or someplace urgent pretending no change to charge more .

The list of tricks go on, ridesharing did away with a lot of that.

P.S. it is not all taxi drivers are evil or something, plenty of them have been really helpful in tough spots even the ones who ripped me off have come back to return a valuable item I missed.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#415

Post by wpietri » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #321

wpietri wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually talked to taxi drivers about this? Pre-plague, I've talked with hundreds about their views on their work, and at least dozens about Uber. Were cab companies beloved? Mostly not. Did drivers see themselves as being "totally screwed"? Definitely not. And they almost universally despise Uber. The daily vehicle rental approach in their eyes has advantages. Number one is zero capex. Number two is predict…

Have you talked to Uber drivers? Did they see themselves as being “totally screwed”? AB5 was written by a union. Not by Uber drivers.

I have talked with quite a number of former Uber drivers. And I've kept an eye on the declining amount Uber drivers are making, and how Uber has shifted much of their business risk to the working poor.

You might consider that an Uber driver is not going to be frank with an Uber customer about how shitty Uber is. Or frank with themselves, honestly.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#416

Post by int_19h » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #409

int_19h wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, but without such extreme concentration of wealth, they're not so powerful when it comes to public discourse. (Note that we're talking specifically about democracy , regardless of the economic system.)

The public labor unions in Washington are as powerful as they get, as it is very hard to get elected without their endorsement.

Labor unions (and any other similar member-driven organizations) become powerful by concentrating people, not money. And more people translating to more political power is the quintessence of democracy.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#417

Post by takeda » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 12:16 AM UTC

fairity wrote: post #98

takeda wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Uber/Lyft/Doordash etc can give them autonomy, they can make them true contractors. I also doubt that the law forces companies to have a work schedule for their employees. From what I understand it just says that benefits are provided if employee works for more than certain amount of hours. So to me it seems like it's all about exploiting their drivers (treating drivers like employees without providing advantages…

While it's true that the law doesn't force companies to assign shifts to employees, in practice, it's always the case. The reason is because ultimately, scheduling shifts is going to be both easier to manage and more cost efficient than letting employees choose their own schedule. Uber has a good idea of how many drivers they need at any given time. This ideal distribution of supply will never align perfectly with th…

but you're saying shifts are scheduled because it is easier for companies. And that's actually true, if people work at the same time, it's easier to cooperate if a manager likes to micromanage it is also easier look at their screen making sure they are working.

The thing is that Uber et al prefers if there is no schedule and law actually doesn't stand in the way of that.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#418

Post by takeda » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 12:21 AM UTC

fairity wrote: post #120

MystK wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If scheduling shifts were better for Uber and Lyft, they would have done it already.

You can't legally schedule shifts for independent contractors.

Are you sure about that? Because I worked with other contractors and they also had a schedule like me. The main difference was that they didn't get any benefits and could be let go immediately.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#419

Post by mepiethree » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

koolba wrote: post #396

mepiethree wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, life is so much better now that we can exploit labor to get ubiquitous and cheap rides

I'm fine with raising the prices to something sustainable. There's no reason it has to be below minimum wage + the cost of maintaining the car. What I'm not okay with is going back to the only option being a oddly smelling yellow cab that will only pick you up in the profitable parts of the city and refuses to take you parts of the city they deem unprofitable on the return trip. I truly believe that Travis Kalanick h…

How did Travis Kalanick end racism?

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#420

Post by mepiethree » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

VRay wrote: post #413

koolba wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with raising the prices to something sustainable. There's no reason it has to be below minimum wage + the cost of maintaining the car. What I'm not okay with is going back to the only option being a oddly smelling yellow cab that will only pick you up in the profitable parts of the city and refuses to take you parts of the city they deem unprofitable on the return trip. I truly believe that Travis Kalanick h…

yeah, I hate Uber and Lyft more than most, but I have to admit that you're totally right about it being an unambiguous upgrade over taxi service I used to get super angry every time I had to take a taxi in the Bay Area. Before I got in I'd say "OK, your credit card reader is working, right?" and they'd swear it is, and then wouldn't you know it? Somehow the machine broke down between the airport and my destination EV…

Taxis basically predate the app boom. The world has changed a lot since 2011. I suspect that if Uber leaves, some scrappy people will be able make a simple app that does 90% of what Uber does that consumers actually care about, but without the need to pay back billions in VC funding