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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#411

Post by chairmanwow1 »

coding123 wrote: post #390
grandmczeb wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ My understanding is that the rider is presented with a range of possible fares before searching (e.g. $9-10). If they are matched with a driver asking for a higher fare than that range they have the option to decline.

So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.

I will use Uber and Lyft less because of this. I don’t really want to go through the process of negotiating the rate. This is much more tedious.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#412

Post by sida »

coldpie wrote: post #78
hammock wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. If the employers don't want the change... and the employees don't want the change... and the customers don't want the change... and the shareholders don't want the change... and the residents of California don't want the change (exhibited by the threads yesterday with outcry over the decision to sh…

I'm not a resident of California (rather, Minnesota), but I do want it to change. I don't use gig services because I think anyone doing 40[1] hours of work deserves a wage they can live off of, along all the other employment protections we've worked so hard to implement. Gig services are cheap because they don't meet that requirement. If gig services were required to meet that minimum wage and workers' rights, then I…

Drivers now set their own prices. Then it is the same as setting your own prices to teach piano to kids?

Set your own price higher then

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#413

Post by tdeck »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #210
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I feel like there is a general pattern. The left tends to prioritize all the good ideas: gender equality, racial equality, income gaps, etc. The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world with real people who are sometimes jealous, stupid, unethical, liars, etc. This is just a case where the first group has run amok without talking to the second group. It's the good idea of everyone sh…

> The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world

This is a lazy take - plenty of systems have been created by "the right" that don't work, even according to their stated goals. Moreover, how do you define "work", and why are things like gender and racial equality framed as extras rather than integral to evaluating whether a system works?

> This is just a case where the first group has run amok

How did you determine someone has "run amok" here? Uber/Lyft were shut down for a day - we have yet to see the long term effects of AB5 and that's where the proof is. To take a historical analogy, of course when we outlawed child labor some businesses that relied on it shut down. If we'd just said "oops, let's reverse that decision right away" we might still be left with the impression that child labor laws had failed.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#414

Post by shanhaiguan »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #376
chillwaves wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are poor because they live on a knife's edge, one accident away from financial insolvency or lack of sufficient access to necessities like health care and education opportunities. Also having to work multiple jobs to break even. The problem isn't "inequality" it is that the floor in the US is so low compared to other wealthy nations.

This is a great example of having the right ideas but not understanding workable systems with real people. Let's take just one industry and I can show you how it's not as simple as you make it out to be: socialized/single-payer medicine. This is a system which reduces incentives (profits) in exchange for some equity. This is a great idea because we don't like it when people suffer. But what are the costs? Basic econo…

It seems that your claim of infinite harm is based on the idea that the future is infinite. If the current subpar healthcare situation continues indefinitely, is the harm that it inflicts on its victims not also infinite? Is the benefit provided from removing this source of harm not also infinite? Then by your own reasoning, the question is not nearly as simple as infinite > finite.

Being in favour of single-payer, I can still appreciate arguments against it I guess. But this particular one isn't very effective.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#415

Post by grandmczeb »

coding123 wrote: post #390
grandmczeb wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ My understanding is that the rider is presented with a range of possible fares before searching (e.g. $9-10). If they are matched with a driver asking for a higher fare than that range they have the option to decline.

So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.

Who will keep declining? Drivers set their prices up front (they don’t even get requests outside of their price) and riders auto accept if it’s in the range they were shown.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#416

Post by sudosysgen »

dahfizz wrote: post #396
sudosysgen wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Once the State nationalizes unemployment insurance and healthcare insurance then we can reclassify them as contractors.

This perfectly lays bare why I disagree with the ruling: you don't actually think drivers are employees, you just want them classified as employees so they get X benefits. It's a legislative hack. It's seems so obvious to me that we need to create a third kind of worker: not an employee, not a contractor, but a new category that has some of the extra freedom of contracting and some of the benefits of employment. It's…

No, they pretty much are employees, sorry. Under the current framework, they fit the definition of employee well in the letter and perfectly in the spirit.

Employees can have literally every single freedom that Uber drivers have. Nothing is disqualifying.

I agree that once we reform Healthcare and Unemployment, we can create a third category if we want, but there are actually no inherent disadvantages in freedom of being an employee in this case. The classification as contractor only really benefits Uber and hurts the common man.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#417

Post by ericd »

coldpie wrote: post #183
ericd wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where does that "enough money to live off of" come from? Unless the company has a lot of fat to trim, it has to come from customers in the form of higher prices, or from investors throwing more cash onto the bonfire. What happens when customers would rather not use your service than pay the amount whatever you're proposing takes? It's very possible that this market only exists at the size that it does at a price…

> Unless the company has a lot of fat to trim, it has to come from customers in the form of higher prices, or from investors throwing more cash onto the bonfire. Nope, there's lots more options than that. Cut executive pay. Tax high earners more and provide social services like healthcare and public transit, to reduce cost and demand on these services. And yes, prices would likely go up, because they're no longer bei…

>Nope, there's lots more options than that. Cut executive pay. Tax high earners more and provide social services like healthcare and public transit, to reduce cost and demand on these services. And yes, prices would likely go up, because they're no longer being subsidized by gov't welfare.

Executive pay, etc was what I was referring to as "fat". But what fraction of Uber's expenses do you think executive pay makes up? This is an oft-stated refrain, but anytime anyone runs the numbers, it quickly becomes apparent that those aren't large enough to make any difference across the huge number of employees involved.

I'm totally onboard with the social reforms you mention, but these are outside the purview of Uber/Lyft and this attempt to force them to treat these people as employees.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#418

Post by dannyw »

overgard wrote: post #176

I honestly don't mind paying more if it goes to support the drivers, but I haven't really seen a compelling argument for why all drivers should count as employees. From my perspective being an "employee" implies certain things that don't seem to apply here (predictable work times, exclusivity (so many lyft drivers are also uber drivers), etc. ) "Freelancer" seems way more appropriate, the only problem is the lack of…

You hit the hammer on the nail. If I was an employee and worked for two directly competing companies simultaneously, I’d be fired for cause.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#419

Post by dannyw »

Skunkleton wrote: post #383
colejohnson66 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d rather my cost go up and tipping disappear (leaving the total the same) if it means I don’t have a societal obligation to tip. Then I can actually use tips for what they’re supposed to be for: above and beyond service.

I think the idea of a tipping is demeaning personally. You wouldn’t tip a doctor who worked extra hard for you, would you?

No but I’d leave a good review and maybe write a card.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#420

Post by grandmczeb »

chairmanwow1 wrote: post #411
coding123 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.

I will use Uber and Lyft less because of this. I don’t really want to go through the process of negotiating the rate. This is much more tedious.

Do you live in CA? Because this has already been rolled out for a while. If you don’t, you don’t have to worry about it.
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