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Google: Open Letter to Australians

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Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#411

Post by tetrometal »

neiman wrote: post #394
tetrometal wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interpreting your comment charitably, I assume you intended hyperbole when using the word force here, and in your comparison to actual force with respect to theft of private property. Still, I think we should be careful with our words, especially lately as words are being redefined out of apparent expedience. So, tedious or pedantic as it may be, I feel obligated to gently push back and point out that no force is bei…

I meant 'force' as in "coercion or compulsion". > I think we should be careful with our words I agree, but this goes both ways. So first, you shouldn't assume I didn't mean a word I choose to use just because you disagree with the usage (though in itself disagreeing is fine of course). Second, don't change my word 'force' to 'aggressive force', a term I never wrote (giving the sentence a whole new meaning). Lastly, t…

Well, I have to make some assumption about your use of a word. In this case, the options I perceived were literal force or hyperbole. In the interest of responding to the "strongest plausible interpretation"[0] of your comment, I assumed the latter.

Since you reject that assumption, I'll respond to the former instead:

There's a clear difference between the two scenarios - one uses physical force (the stolen bike example), the other (Google) does not. For this reason alone, they are incomparable.

Regarding "aggressive force": I never claimed you used the phrase. I'm merely characterizing the stolen bike example. There are two kinds of force that can be used in this context - aggressive and defensive. Aggressive force is force used against a person or their property against their will; defensive force is force used in prevention of aggression. Stealing a bike is clearly an example of the former.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#412

Post by enneff »

LockAndLol wrote: post #399
eru wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google complies with all the relevant laws. If Australians want Google to pay more taxes, they should change the tax laws to make them pay more taxes.

> Google complies with all the relevant laws. Yeah, they use every loophole the system provides to pay the least amount possible. If I used every loophole to take advantage of a system and make it do what I want, I'd be labelled a criminal. I'd be called a hacker. But since it's a big company and the system isn't a computer, well... I guess it's OK then. They're hacking the system and you're fine with it because "tec…

No you wouldn’t. This is what an accountant does for you.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#413

Post by knorker »

chris_wot wrote: post #396
knorker wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's orthogonal. It's like you're saying you want to be fucked by both Google and the government. Why do two wrongs make a right, to you? Again: cutting off your nose to spite your face.

No, I want Google to pay taxes for profit they earned in Australia.

Or-tho-go-nal.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face does not stop your face from doing whatever it did to make you spite it.

Non sequitur. Orthogonal. Unrelated. Irrelevant.

You can be against google fucking you and the Australian government fucking you. These are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#414

Post by cyphar »

runeks wrote: post #402
harry8 wrote: post #221

Open comment from an Australian to google: "Pay your f#$king tax like the rest of us or shut the f%$ck up." This comment stands apart from any and all implications of their special interest policy pleadings above which are all pretty tedious in comparison. Google don't pay tax for profit made selling in Australia. To hell with them and literally any case they have to make.

> Google don't pay tax for profit made selling in Australia. And why should they if they don’t operate in Australia? If I, as a European, sell something to an Australian from which I profit, should I be paying an Australian tax on this sale?

Actually, yes. If you have more than $75k in revenue per year, you are legally obligated to register for, charge, and pay GST[1] -- our equivalent of VAT -- and you have to register as an Australian business (though for most overseas companies the additional taxes are minimal). If you aren't GST registered then Aussies have to do pay for it during the customs process[2]. If I wanted to sell things to customers in the EU in large enough volume, I would probably have to do something similar. Paying taxes (or more generally, following the law) is simply something that businesses have to do if they wish to have access to a country's market -- you also have to follow our consumer laws and other relevant regulations (for instance, this is why Steam has to provide much more lenient return policies here -- we have very strong regulations on warranties and return policies and they were fined for non-compliance in the past).

Not to mention that Google employs lots of people in Australia (Google Maps was first developed in the Sydney office), has a subsidiary incorporated in Australia, and sells many millions of dollars worth of products in Australia. They are no less of an Australian company than Woolworths.

[1]: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/Registering-for-GST/ [2]: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/In-detail/Rules-for-spec...

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#416

Post by harry8 »

knorker wrote: post #253
harry8 wrote: post #221

Open comment from an Australian to google: "Pay your f#$king tax like the rest of us or shut the f%$ck up." This comment stands apart from any and all implications of their special interest policy pleadings above which are all pretty tedious in comparison. Google don't pay tax for profit made selling in Australia. To hell with them and literally any case they have to make.

To hell with "them"? Are you saying Australians should cut off their nose to spite their face? I think you missed the whole point of this letter. Let me clarify: "Oi mate, the government wants to force us to fuck you royally. We don't want to. Please help stop yourself getting fucked. Cheers, cunt."

I think you missed the /whole/ point of the comment.

You are starting from the premise that google care about australians. This is a demonstrably false assumption. They don't pay their tax. They would destroy australians in a heartbeat for more money. It's not opinion, they've shown that themseleves. That is just a sad fact.

Now re-read your comment and tell me if there is any good reason anyone should care about what google says when they claim to be on the side of "australians" when we know they are not. No framing, nor spin from the PR agency here changes that.

Google "on the side of small players" is just vomit-making. They never have been anything other than brutal to small players in any action they have taken in business in any single way. Really. Google take everything they can, whenever they can, however they can. Ask small players who has had business squashed. Want to sell apps in the android store who have their REVENUE taxed by google while google don't pay their tax to the government. Then if you manage to make profit after paying a revenue tax to google you find you just did google's market research for them. That's one example, there are plenty.

Google are foul. This open letter foul. Even if you agree with any points the PR agency is useing to try and influence you it still foul.

The policy discussion about what constitutes good policy for Australia comes after we acknowledge how awful google are. And after we have agreed to place the intrerests of Google precisely last after every single Australian who pays their tax.

"NO representation without taxation!"

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#417

Post by sthnblllII »

eru wrote: post #282
smcl wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia is not (yet?) a Republic

That was probably the least useful thing to criticise in the comment you replied to. I know, I know, pedantry is fun. But I don't think the Queen makes much of a difference to Australia's problems one way or another.

Thanks. I had no idea what he was talking about lol.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#418

Post by taneq »

zizee wrote: post #258
ssss11 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah thats right, I think in Australia your vote basically means nothing.

This is not true. Federal senators are elected on a state wide basis with the top N candidates past the post (N depending on size of the state). This can result in Senators being elected with a very small % of the overall votes. For the lower house, we've had many years of the balance of power in the hands of a small number of independents who get an outsized voice. Yes, if you live in an non-swing electorate, that i…

All of this is true, but it ignores the fact that the two major parties pretty much agree on many important issues (such as government monitoring of internet traffic).

Also the fact that (especially with a hung parliament which we've had for years) independents get an outsized voice is a bit of a two-edged sword. It's far more luck than anything else that determines who's in that vote-tipping seat and sometimes they demand all sorts of special-interest stuff in order to let things through.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#419

Post by ehnto »

pjc50 wrote: post #375
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American politics that they're happy to mock, whilst the broth they're wallowing in is rapidly coming to the same temperature.

American politics is a horrifyingly successful reality TV show. It provides the entertainment and conflict people crave, with the intellectual standards of professional wrestling. Unfortunately real administration is boring - and should be boring. We want to avoid crises.

I hadn't thought about it that way before but I think you're right. American politics is very dramatic. High tensions, big consequences, subterfuge, conspiracy. It's got it all.

Re: Google: Open Letter to Australians

#420

Post by deepstack »

discordance wrote: post #119

Google evil etc etc aside, they have been decent custodians of their users data. I don't really want to trust Google, but they behave much better than the Australian government, who recently admitted they spy on their citizens [0], can coerce citizens and companies to install backdoors into their companies software [1]. I trust Murdoch less than the government, and much much less than Google. Remember when Murdoch in…

>I don't really want to trust Google, but they behave much better than the Australian government, who recently admitted they spy on their citizens

It is really about if you trust Australian gov or the US gov.

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