Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#411

Post by vezycash » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #386

vezycash wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zoom accidentally deactivated a US-based account, and fixed it when they found out. This is why I downvoted your comment.

Do you care to explain why? Because what I said is factual. They stated they aim to "limit the actions we take to those necessary to comply with local law", in this case their action went beyond that limit, and now that they're aware, they fixed it. And I see no evidence otherwise -- this is not something they've shown any pattern of behavior in. It appears to be a one-off. Any conspiracy-mongering that Zoom is nefar…

>Because what I said is factual.

The company has been caught lying at least 3 times.

1. Lying about their daily active users. https://thenextweb.com/apps/2020/04/30/zoom-daily-active-use...

2. Lying that they used 256 bit encryption (it was 128 bit)

3. Lying about using end to end encryption

4. Lying about separating Chinese users from the rest of the network https://www.channelpartnersonline.com/2020/04/07/zoom-lied-f...

I'm not the only one who was waiting for the cover up lie for this incidence.

"if they make an excuse AFTER THIS STORY BLOWS UP, I think it's reasonable to consider their justification "retconned" and not actually the real reason they closed the account (which can be reasonably inferred to be CCP-aligned censorship)." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23481177

It's also not the first time an American company would lockup a non-chinese user's account for saying/doing something china doesn't like.

A famous example is Blizzard's banning of a Hong Kong protester's account, seizing his earnings and backtracked after the story went viral.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#412

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

yeahforsureman wrote: post #343

Redoubts wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Why does this event move the needle one way or another? The group had a paid account so Zoom knows who they are, and this was a publicized event. All the Chinese government needed to know was an event they don't like was happening, with the services of a company they can exercise soft power over.

That's weird use of the term "soft power".

Presumably several voice messages were left before they broke out the rubber hoses and jumper cables.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#413

Post by anonu » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

I want to stop using zoom. But the experience is far higher quality than anything else I've used. Maybe part of that is the strong suggestion and herding towards using the desktop app and not the browser.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#414

Post by otoburb » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:19 AM UTC

_b3dj wrote: post #206

ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

>The government of Taiwan banned official use of Zoom due to security concerns, as have New York State schools, the U.S. Senate, and the German ministry of foreign affairs. This is good enough reason to not use it. Also I stopped using zoom and trying to avoiding it as much as possible after the very first vulnerability scandal[0] came about [0] https://medium.com/bugbountywriteup/zoom-zero-day-4-million-...

>>[...] as have New York State schools

The NYC Department of Education (DOE), one of the largest in the nation, banned Zoom in April but "following several weeks of collaboration with the company, [NYC DOE is] now able to offer Zoom as a safe, secure platform for use across the DOE" as per a letter Chancellor Carranza wrote on May 6th, 2020.[1]

Public school teachers tried other video conferencing solutions but, for better or for worse, Zoom's UX was always easier to use or less janky than other paid or opensource offerings at scale -- and that's saying something because Zoom's UX isn't what any of us might call super smooth.

[1] https://connectdocs.blackboard.com/xythoswfs/webui/_xy-13091...

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#415

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

knolax wrote: post #400

jessaustin wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese Edward Snowden is not currently living in Moscow. "I see no reason" is not a good way to start fallacy-measuring.

There are plenty of Chinese dissidents, including the the activist that is the subject of TFA. The default assumption is to assume noncorrelation between things until proven otherwise. That's a defensible position, yours isn't.

I only said that it is safer to assume surveillance. I didn't say it was more fair or more "defensible" or whatever. In reply you've offered "default assumptions" and "burdens of proof" and "theology". Whom do you attempt to convince with this [EDIT:] sophistry?

Oh and nice job implying that Chinese dissidents have the duty of "proving" to the world that the Chinese government surveils them. Snowden is not a dissident, he is a whistleblower. Also, in general, telling people who suffer that they ought to educate the rest of us about the particular details of their suffering is not cool.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#416

Post by redis_mlc » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

> I feel like the good faith presumption for this company

When you place faith in a dictator, like the CCP, this is always the result:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#417

Post by cutemonster » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #383

cutemonster wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zoom is forced to apologize by China Why would China want them to apologize? (Or there's a typo?) Didn't zoom do what C wanted already

Cf. the Marriott apology in GP's link - it would be further to the action already taken, rather than retracting or apologising for it.

Ok thanks for explaining

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#418

Post by pvg » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:33 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #252

ianstormtaylor wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to think of examples... 1. HTTPS everywhere has zero impact on the usability of a website, but makes visiting those sites much more secure. 2. Apple's App Store model for installing applications improves security and is also easier to use for the average user. 3. 1Password with Touch/Face ID can actually be easier these days than entering emails and passwords manually. 4. And more… Security doesn't alwa…

> 1. HTTPS everywhere has zero impact on the usability of a website, but makes visiting those sites much more secure. You have to install a plugin on every browser and device. That's not user friendly. Also some sites break and you have to understand why. > 2. Apple's App Store model for installing applications improves security and is also easier to use for the average user. You have to have an account on the app st…

It's not really much of a comparison if you pick things like 'the security mechanism breaks in some way' and no similar failure modes of the 'no security' variant. It's a serious usability problem if an insecure interaction gives you bogus information or if all your accounts are compromised because you use the same password everywhere.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#419

Post by gonehome » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

J5892 wrote: post #284

gonehome wrote: post #7

This kind of thing is the exact reason why I was disturbed by the Keybase.io sale to Zoom and abandoned my account. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23105253 ) I've been currently using Zoom during the pandemic because as a product it's still the best (and I signed up for a discounted year of pro), but I won't give them any money again.

Whoa. I didn't know that. Even though my trust of Zoom isn't completely eliminated (yet), that absolutely negates my reasons for using keybase. Granted, I haven't used it in a while because they put me in a position where recovering my account is impossible.

You should be able to reset your account to negate all your keys and set things back up if you lost access to all previous devices.

I ended up doing this anyway in the end, after deleting everything I could before I stopped using it.

They do make you wait seven days before you can do it after you make the request.

I still have the account because I don't want to lose access to my username (didn't delete it), but it's otherwise empty and unused with fresh keys that have no history with anything.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#420

Post by gonehome » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

aschatten wrote: post #368

gonehome wrote: post #7

This kind of thing is the exact reason why I was disturbed by the Keybase.io sale to Zoom and abandoned my account. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23105253 ) I've been currently using Zoom during the pandemic because as a product it's still the best (and I signed up for a discounted year of pro), but I won't give them any money again.

Wow, looks like I have been living under the rock for a little bit. The monetization strategy was not clear to me, but I though that eventually having premium accounts would make sense. The launch of Stellar was a little confusing.

Yep - this is why I was so disappointed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23105031