Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says • Hacker News Board

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#411

Post by CharlesColeman » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #408

code_duck wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely a video tape of someone grabbing an underage girl somewhere like that without their consent.

My point is, the former already happened, and made zero difference.

> My point is, the former already happened, and made zero difference.

To that particular person. Being personally shameless with corrupt friends does have a way of making one immune to many kinds of blackmail. That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who have more shame and better friends that can still be controlled via threats of blackmail.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#412

Post by malvosenior » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

throwaway743 wrote: post #365

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I am 100% speculating, but I'd guess that's what Jeff Bezos did in relation to his extra-marital affair, and what Bill Gates and others have been doing in relation to Epstein.

Might be a stretch, but it was interesting to see that around the time of the MIT Media Lab/Joi Ito and Bill Gates connections to Epstein came out, Netflix happened to have a new Bill Gates documentary front and center shortly after. Iirc it was called something like The Brain of Bill Gates and the trailer seemed to paint a positive image of him (didn't watch/don't want to). Maybe it's been up for a while, but it was…

Gates also did a lot of Twitter advertising for himself right as this happened. Reid Hoffman did a big media push the day his involvement came out as well.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#413

Post by malvosenior » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

forgottenpass wrote: post #404

claudeganon wrote: post #36

Epstein’s death seems the most overt taunt about ruling class impunity in my lifetime. Not only in its circumstances, but in the kind of shifting, threadbare cover stories about everyone with whom he was associated. Bill Gates, for example, had staff overlap between his foundation and Epstein, (including one who was named in Epstein’s will!) and was able to diminish these connections in major media outlets with almos…

If you think his associates were fucking children or involved in the prostitution ring, just say so. If you don't think that, well then we do have to hem and haw about how much guilt by association they carry. Because for a lot of people, business connections or rubbing elbows for money with bad people doesn't get much blowback. Just look at Tim Cook gladhanding dictators of nations where homosexuality is outlawed. O…

I think most people feel that Epstein's associates were involved with the child prostitution ring. Epstein was a child sex trafficker after all. Every person who flew on his plane or visited his houses is suspect and should be investigated.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#414

Post by CobrastanJorji » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

softawre wrote: post #265

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were sleeping through their shift because that's just what prison guards frequently do. They were doing a lot of overtime, partly because the prison is understaffed and partly because you make a lot of money signing up for overtime. They were tired, and nobody watches the watchers. Why do you think that sleeping through overtime would be a case of the guards risking their life? I doubt they've even been fired.

This seems plausible. But if this is true, then why haven't their been more successful suicides at this prison?

First, there are lots of suicides in prison. The suicide rate is 4 times higher there than in the general public, and the rate is highest among pre-trial detainees, like Epstein.

Second, people are generally pretty bad at suicide, and the methods most likely to succeed (firearms, drugs, falling) are not available as options.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#415

Post by krn » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #286

code_duck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epstein's ability to carry in his activities with near impunity during his life seems even more shocking to me. Pretty much everyone knew what this guy was doing for decades.

There is some notion that he may have been operating a honeypot (kompromat factory) for Western intelligence services (particularly CIA or Mossad). That would explain why he was collecting blackmail material and all. I suppose the null hypothesis is that rich and well-connected people can get away with even open crimes in public for years and years. Weinstein got away with rape for years and years, against well-conne…

> There is some notion that he may have been operating a honeypot (kompromat factory) for Western intelligence services (particularly CIA or Mossad).

Mossad seems to be the most likely player here[1][2]:

> Given the chance to refute Ward’s report, specifically that the Epstein case involved intelligence matters, Acosta did nothing of the sort. Indeed, he functionally admitted that it’s true.

> What then can we conclude at this point? It appears that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in intelligence work, of some kind, for someone—and it probably wasn’t American intelligence either. The U.S. Intelligence Community is lenient about the private habits of high-value agents or informants, but they won’t countenance running sex trafficking rings for minors on American soil, for years. While it’s plausible that Epstein was sharing some information with the FBI—many criminals do so to buy themselves some insurance—it’s implausible that he was mainly working for the Americans.

> Who are the suspects then? It seems awfully coincidental that Epstein’s best pal and business partner for decades has been Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite and daughter of the late Robert Maxwell, the media mogul who died under mysterious circumstances in 1991.

> Six serving and former heads of Israeli intelligence services attended Maxwell's funeral in Israel, while Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir eulogized him and stated: “He has done more for Israel than can today be said."

[1] https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligenc...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell#Israeli_connect...

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#416

Post by jnaddef » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #394

jnaddef wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again you are comparing apples with oranges. Outside of prison, nothing prevents you from attempting suicide. Whether you succeed or not depends mostly on your resolve and how you do it. In a perfect prison, suicide attempt should be 0%, not because people are happy, but because inmates should have no way to even attempt a suicide. If at some point a mistake is made and an inmate manages to kill himself, it will be a…

No that is not a perfect prison. A perfect prison should probably be more like the general population. Unless you think the perfect prison is chained to the wall at all times. And that prison is no place for rehabilitation.

Sure, I thought it was obvious I meant : "in a perfect high-security cell where the goal is to keep the prisoner from killing himself before testifying"

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#417

Post by magduf » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #293

shadowgovt wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem with conspiracy theories... Avoidable accidents and conspiracy theories have the same fact pattern, which is an overlap of failure modes that should have been preventable but weren't prevented. Was the Titanic disaster a tragic accident borne of negligence... or a conspiracy to assassinate John Jacob Astor and make it look like an accident? A lot had to go wrong to make an unsinkable ship sink. Wh…

I thought the Titanic disaster was pretty well-explained as an accident caused by incompetence and hubris. The ship wasn't "unsinkable"; they just advertised it that way, but it was no match for a big iceberg. The ship was sailing through an area with icebergs, and going fast too, and it was nighttime. IIRC, the captain was in a rush to get to the destination (sorry, it's been a while since I watched Cameron's movie)…

Addendum: after watching an interesting YouTube video on the disaster, it seems that not filling the lifeboats actually wasn't all that incompetent. A lot of people didn't think the boat was really sinking, and there was another large ship within visual distance which could see them and their flares, and which they were radioing for help, so they thought help was going to be there very shortly if they needed it. Unfortunately, there was some very serious incompetence going on at that ship: the radio operator had gone to sleep for the night, and the captain, despite seeing many flares, decided not to bother investigating. After the disaster, apparently his story changed every time he was asked.

Anyway, I think my point stands: trying to murder someone by engineering a disaster at sea like this is pretty ridiculous; too many things have to go wrong all at the same time, which really aren't under control of any one person or small group. Getting the captain to speed through iceberg territory (and honestly, there weren't that many icebergs, they were just unlucky and happened across a big one), making sure a large iceberg was directly ahead, making sure just enough compartments flooded, making sure the radio operator on the other ship went to bed, making sure the captain of the nearby ship refused to investigate, and finally when help did arrive (and it did), making sure the assassination target somehow wasn't among the survivors. Killing someone in a prison cell where there's no witnesses except a camera or two (that "just happened" to be "malfunctioning") and a couple of guards to bribe is actually realistic and possible, especially if state-level operatives are involved.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#418

Post by pkilgore » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:50 PM UTC

passwordreset wrote: post #124

pkilgore wrote: post #22

I hate to be boring, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which so far has not been presented. My brother in law is an attorney who literally makes a career out of the deaths and injuries that result from the incredible incompetence and neglect we inflict upon the imprisoned in this country. And as he puts it "Business is Good."

I'm not sure I follow you here. Which claim do you consider to be extraordinary, the claim that Epstein was killed, or the claim the Epstein was a suicide? Neither claim seems "extraordinary".

Suicide is as high as a third of all prison deaths depending on facility. Homicide is like 2-4%.

The claim that someone entered a locked prison cell, killed Epstein, and then left without getting caught is the definition of extraordinary.

It's possible, but then it's possible I'm being paid to post this by his killers rather than just be some schmuck in Chicago waiting for a meeting to be over.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#419

Post by pkilgore » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 9:04 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #98

pkilgore wrote: post #22

I hate to be boring, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which so far has not been presented. My brother in law is an attorney who literally makes a career out of the deaths and injuries that result from the incredible incompetence and neglect we inflict upon the imprisoned in this country. And as he puts it "Business is Good."

We know that people are murdered in prison (though probably not as often as the media depicts.) We know that blackmail exists. While they might be uncommon, neither of those are extraordinary. It is also undisputed that: - a serial and unabashed pedophile had multiple contacts with two presidents, a member of the British royal family and a few titans of industry. - when prosecuted for his sex crimes said pedophile ca…

Both blackmail and homicide are uncommon in prison.

Suicide in prison is very, very common.

The wealthy and powerful being above the law and getting sweetheart deals by prosecutors who are more obsessed with not losing and not working hard for easy pleas against people who cannot afford to defend themselves Federally is very, very common.

Note I am not closed to the possibility he was killed, I'm simply noting the contents of this article are miles away from the kind of evidence sufficient to raise a doubt he killed himself.

Obviously I'm interested...why else am I commenting after reading the article? The problem is that nothing interesting happened.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#420

Post by ddingus » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

BubRoss wrote: post #39

ddingus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should he have been?

That's not the issue with regards to the parent comment. The parent said he couldn't believe someone could kill themselves in a bare cell meant to stop people from suicide, but that's not where he was.

Exactly, thus my question.