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San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

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411–420 of 426 posts

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#411
Perhaps the ban should have been targeted at ways to decrease the litter and pollution that comes from disposable vaporizer products. Other commenter have pointed out how Juul pods are treated as disposable and can end up as litter on the sidewalk like cigarettes. However, there are refillable pod systems that would cut down on behavior like that.

A side effect of requiring refillable pods may be an increased initial cost for the device and a bottle of juice, but at the moment there are refillable systems that are cheaper (and lower quality) than Juul.

As far as the waste from batteries and the risk of devices not being disposed of properly, my personal device actually recommends contacting the manufacturer or a shop that sells the product to perform a proper battery replacement. The old battery is then disposed of safely.

Vaping in a way that affects other people is always wrong, but until there is a push for society to call out the users who vape in improper places, legislation will not fix the issue. I would like to see more efforts to educate current or potential users about the risks of vaping and also the risks of misusing their devices. The current culture of vaping cannot be relied upon to accurately reflect the health issues that can from from it, as the vaping community seems to always fight back against any possible health risks.

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#412
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have a right to not inhale someone else's smoke. Let's be very clear about the language you're just throwing around like it doesn't mean anything, because the Rights recognized by the Constitution aren't just something that have no meaning. That's why I never said that I believe people have a Right to smoke, yet for some reason you quote me like I did say that. People don't have a right to smoke, just like…

> They are God-Given Honest question, what do you mean by that?

Non-legally speaking, the term "Right" in American law refers to guarantees which are recognized to be Natural, in the sense that you're born with them and they would continue to exist even if the government were to disappear. The Declaration of Independence, though not really a "legal" document, words it the most clearly:

> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

In other words, the Law doesn't "grant" you a Right to something. It recognizes that these Rights already existed, and (sometimes) forbids the government from destroying them. This is also worded pretty clearly in the of-course infamous second amendment:

> the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It isn't saying that "people have the right to bear arms". Its saying that "your right to bear arms can't be infringed". So, then, where does that right come from? Its Natural.

There's an interesting, somewhat clear follow-up to this recognition of the wording of the constitution and founding documents: they don't exhaustively enumerate the rights people have. So what rights do Americans actually have? In fact, the ninth amendment recognizes this:

> The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Constitutional interpretation is a complex, contentious thing. The way I see it, which is hardly professional: they recognized that because they aren't enumerating every Right, it follows that there must exist rights that some people believe they have, and it isn't the place of the government to either Confirm that Right or Disparage it. If I believe I have a right to kill someone for no reason... well, this shouldn't be allowed in a functioning society. So it follows that Law will inevitably supersede some Rights, just by the nature of Rights being, to a degree, self-decided (by your belief system, or your nature, or parenting, or whatever). Thus, certain protections were put in place to explicitly protect rights they believed were critical (like freedom of speech), but others may actually be "disparaged", and the ninth amendment just says that this is the case: people DO have other rights beyond the ones we listed, but we can't deny them JUST because we listed some other ones.

That's why its fascinating when people throw around language like "I have a right to not breath in smoke". There's a lot at play there. First: If you believe you have that Right, then you do! No one can take that away from you; its your right to not breath in smoke. But, also, Second: Your belief that you have some Right does not, by virtue of it being a Right, lead to the government being compelled to protect it. A Right does not have to be respected, confirmed, disparaged, or protected by the government. Its just something you have, because you're Human.

In other words, the phrase "I have a right to X" gets thrown around a lot, but it doesn't really mean much except the cases where it is enumerated, unless a bunch of people recognize that they also have that Right, in which case it is codified into Law. In an ideal world.

(And I do want to clarify in my comment I made earlier: I was being too brash by saying that the OP "does not have a right to breath in smoke". Maybe they do have that right. My point was really to emphasize that the right isn't Recognized. I have a right to run down the street naked. That doesn't mean the government will or should let me do it. So, saying "I have a right" to something isn't really all that meaningful, unless you're specifically referring to the rights protected by the constitution or law.)

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#413
post #347
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the gory death warnings is to stop new smokers from starting, to making smoking as unattractive as possible. Smokers become desensitised to the warnings really quickly from looking at them every time they smoke.

It does not work.

It does work. https://www.who.int/fctc/text_download/en/ Try to gather evidence to pursue your claims

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#414
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do live I the Bay Area and I know more people 21-25 who smoke cigarettes than vape. See... anecdotal evidence is easy to find a counterpoint to.

You got me curious, so started digging up sone actual data. Here's some interesting public polls (Gallup): https://news.gallup.com/poll/237818/young-people-adopt-vapin... According to their data, in the 18-29 demographic, 20% vape compared to 16% using traditional cigarettes. And some analysis from the academic side: https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2018/10/31/toba... "There was a substantial increase in…

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Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This growth percentage is for E-cigarettes, not for smoking. And when were E-cigs invented anyway? Comparing against 2011 may be a way to get big percentage numbers, without describing much about prevalence.

> About 4.9 million middle and high school students were current users (used in the past 30 days) of some type of tobacco product in 2018, up from 3.6 million in 2017. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/p0211-youth-tobacco-...

The 30-day prevalence for vaping use is about the same as for marijuana. See https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/marijuana (TL;DR: 5.60%, 16.70%, and 22.20% for 8th, 10th, and 12th graders, respectively, for 2018.)

And despite the scary stories, it seems reported vaping use hasn't sharply risen. It peaked in 2015, substantially declined in 2017, and for 2018 seems to have returned to 2015 levels. But overall vaping use has at worst replaced cigarette smoking and possibly accelerated the long-term decline in smoking. A recent study, https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2018/10/31/toba..., concludes

> If our primary concern is population-level trends in youth and young adult smoking, which we believe is appropriate, then vaping has not shown to be a serious cause for concern, even if the catalyst hypothesis is correct, and it is possible that vaping may be playing a contributing role to the recent steep declines in youth and young adult smoking.

The anti-vaping hysteria is irresponsible and to the extent it ignores the data and creates a boogeyman out of unknowns it's anti-science. Compared to the parade of horribles consequent to tobacco use and even marijuana use, not to mention alcohol and other drugs, nicotine itself should be the least of our worries. And that's before we even consider the efficacy of a ban in terms of preventing teen vaping. (And if we as a community could manage to have an adult conversation about nicotine, like we briefly did for THC, we might appreciate the benefits of nicotine--e.g. that it's used by a significant fraction of adults and teens alike to self-medicate real behavioral and mental health problems.)

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#416
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also. There are almost no kids in SF. There are more dogs than children. True fact. San Francisco is bending backward on a lot of issues. Homelessness, scooters, airbnb, housing, weed and now vaping. I will never understand what the officials are smoking here.

Under 18 population: Chicago - 23% New York - 21% San Francisco - 13% https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/us/san-francisco-children...

The children-dogs statement is true, though: https://www.kqed.org/news/11669269/are-there-really-more-dog...

But as someone with two kids living in San Francisco I think it's actually a great city for kids. The city spends extravagantly on parks, libraries, and youth programs.[1] The homeless and drug addict situations are very problematic, but mostly concentrated outside the neighborhoods (rich and poor) where families are more common. That said, there are quite alot of kids in the Tenderloin, where homelessness and drug use are endemic, than one would think.

[1] The City of SF has a $12 billion budget, greater than that of ~14 states judging by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...some water vapour on it and very slight discolouration from the colouring in the e-liquid." "Research estimates that, while not risk-free..." Less harmful but harmful nonetheless. Not without risk. Contaminants and other unnatural elements are introduced into the lungs. Vaping is harmful, too.

Eh, you'd need to show me some evidence that e-cigs are more unhealthy than drinking soda, or the exhaust in a big city. Standing in the sunlight is also harmful; want to ban that?

Comparing e-cigs to other unhealthy things does not make e-cigs any better for you.

Best advice. Don't be stupid. Don't smoke anything at all. It's unnatural. Your lungs are trying to tell you something when you first try it. Listen to them.

Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#419
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under 18 population: Chicago - 23% New York - 21% San Francisco - 13% https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/us/san-francisco-children...

The children-dogs statement is true, though: https://www.kqed.org/news/11669269/are-there-really-more-dog... But as someone with two kids living in San Francisco I think it's actually a great city for kids. The city spends extravagantly on parks, libraries, and youth programs.[1] The homeless and drug addict situations are very problematic, but mostly concentrated outside the neighborhoods (rich and poor) where famil…

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Re: San Francisco Becomes First U.S. City to Pass an E-Cigarette Ban

#420
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get it maybe because you don't have kids. e-cigarettes have a different appeal than smoking. Cigarettes are what your parents did and its not cool at all. Vaping with all the different flavors and drugs you can inhale, is all the rage. Its very hard to for schools to control because there is no real smoke and can be hidden easily. I have kids in high school and middle school and they both report lots of vap…

We need to ban all steaks! Why? Because my baby keeps finding steaks and choking on them! Shouldn't you just...take responsibility for your baby and keep it away from steak? Plenty of people eat steaks and they're fine. No! You don't get it because you don't have kids. Edit: Seriously though, I do understand, and if I were a parent I too would probably try to deflect my responsibilities onto the rest of society. Pare…

There's just so much wrong in your response its hard to even respond. I suggest you save your post and someday if and when your kid is in high school, re-read it. You will have a good laugh.
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