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Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

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411–420 of 497 posts

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#411

what sucks is that any savings is taken by property taxes, especially in NJ, NY etc. And they go up every year. That alone is in many cases as much as rent (albeit on a smaller place, but still) http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/03/nj_towns_with_t... Hey, at least state officials will have nice pensions wen they retire.

Your property taxes and mortgage insurance are deductible where rent is not. If you look hard enough in NJ/NY areas you can find places where the principal is near the rent price and you deduct the rest. In the long run that works out to your favor. Not everyone can afford such a situation and the new Trump tax changes don't help either. Just saying "I should rent" is irresponsible because you think you're bumping th…

Rent is deductible for certain states. The new tax changes are going to be scary for some states, I would not buy until I have a comprehensive idea of what is coming.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#412

These articles always ignore leverage. Generally, with 20% down you are leveraged 5:1. So even if your home is just keeping pace with inflation of 3%, you actually experience 15% growth on your investment. To use the example in the article, if your investment doubled between 2009 and now, your $200k in a $1M home just became 1.2M. 6x growth beats out 3x growth in stocks in the same period. Sure, you can be leveraged…

One other key difference that makes leverage in stocks scarier: once you hit zero, you’re wiped out.

In your example, a 20% decline in stocks would wipe you out.

In principle, the same thing can happen to a home. But there are two reasons it isn’t as bad : 1) as long as you keep up the payments, the lender won’t foreclose you. 2) there’s a dampening effect in home sales - when demand softens, volume collapses. So a 20% decline doesn’t happen as often.

I owned a house in Redwood City during the 2008 collapse and ended up under-water in it for a while (negative equity). I just held on and it recovered nicely, and I sold it for a great profit in 2014. My stock broker would’ve never let me do that.

More broadly, buying is also an “option” to stay in the area long term. In a place like the SF Bay Area, where you just can’t tell what will happen next to house prices, that should be factored in as part of the value.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#413
post #4

As a commitment averse 30-something perpetual renter I've always felt like I was "throwing money away" by renting - but having breakages, plumping, electricity, etc be someone else's problem was how I often justified it to myself. While I'm sure, like anything, the decision to rent or own is highly situational this article still gives me some hope that I haven't made every wrong decision when it comes to "build or bu…

At the moment, I'm renting a rather nice unit in a rather old building. I suspect it would probably be cheaper to buy the place and pay a mortgage, since rent is likely to rise aggressively.

But it's an old enough place that repair issues aren't just inconvenient - there's a possibility of serious damage, made incredibly expensive to address by historical preservation laws. If the owners get unlucky, they might well be on the hook for repairs costing much of the value of the house.

It's been on my mind a lot, and I really can't imagine buying a place of that age and expense. Either I'd be gambling on 100 year old fixtures, or the amount of money I'd need earmarked for repairs would more than wipe out the savings of renting.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#414
post #44

The New York Times has a fairly detailed rent-vs-buy calculator that makes it easy to see the effects of changing some of the variables the author talks about in the article. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-cal...

Very interesting. I put in all of my details. There is no way in hell I could find anything comparable for $500 or less a month.

Yeah, running that tool produces exactly the opposite conclusion from the article. Renting is easily 50% higher than the break-even price provided.

An interesting experiment: go back and use the article's numbers for "what does the future hold?" That is, 2% home price growth, 2% rent growth, 8% investment returns. For me, those numbers say I could rent for $5,000 and come out ahead. Using the recent-history numbers for where I live, the price craters to $1,500.

I know the article says "circumstances may vary" a dozen times, but I think it's still pretty misleading, especially the P/R section. High and rising housing prices go hand in hand with large rent increases, and rent growth dominates pretty much everything else in this calculation.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#415
post #90
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally, with 20% down you are leveraged 5:1. So even if your home is just keeping pace with inflation of 3%, you actually experience 15% growth on your investment. But if inflation is 3%, you're probably paying 3% (or more) interest on your loan. So suppose your home costs X. You pay 0.2X downpayment and borrow 0.8X through your mortgage. The first year your home appreciates to 1.03X but you also pay around 3% o…

Your forgetting the tax write off of mortgage interest. Which needs to go into you equation no? That can be sizable.

This used to be a bigger benefit. Now with Trump's new tax law, the standard deduction has been doubled to $24k, so to make it worthwhile to itemize your taxes, you need to pay at least that much in mortgage interest, which equates to a rather expensive house. The new tax law is a really good thing for renters, not so good for house-buyers.

I'm another one who was burned in the real estate collapse, and have been renting ever since. I was definitely not a trump voter, but I have to say his new tax plan looks like it's going to benefit me greatly.

Another thing I've noticed people haven't mentioned here is the freedom that comes with renting. As with many in the tech industry, I don't normally stay at a single job for 20 years, but instead I end up changing jobs every few years. If I buy a house convenient to work, and then end up having to get a new job that's across town, I either have a horrible commute or I rent out my place and go rent a new one. As a renter, I can just give notice and find a new place in a better location.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#416
post #16

When the goal is to have a roof over your head, between renting or buying, the better option is to buy. If the goal is to invest wisely, of course buying a house is worse than say something like an index fund. But the problem is: I can't sleep in an index fund. A house isn't a depreciating asset. Renting is not an asset at all. Mortgages are fixed. Rent tends to frequently increase, skyrocketing at worse. This articl…

> A house isn't a depreciating asset False. Land isn't a depreciating asset, but according to U.S. tax law a house is indeed a depreciating asset. EDIT: I'll rephrase and say "It's complicated". You can deduct depreciation on a house under some situations because structures are assumed to be depreciating. But a house can still appreciate and when you sell you may be on the hook for gains because of deducted depreciat…

> False. Land isn't a depreciating asset, but according to

To make such a bold refutal will require another source besides what the U.S. tax law says, because US tax law classifications aren't the same thing as market classifications. There are other reasons at play why tax law considers an asset to be of a certain type/category.

I am glad you qualified. Like you said it depends. If you live in downward trending market in a city/town/state where jobs are leaving and aren't keeping your house updated, yes you have a depreciating asset. If you bought in early next to a brand new man-made lake on the outskirts of a major metropolis, you could build a shed and make out like a bandit once the market surges. Most cases fall somewhere in between, on average, keeps up with inflation (the article cites Yale research in this regard). By keeping up with inflation, that by definition makes it not depreciating.

Your point about deduction that is how our economy works. The government pushes you into home ownership. Our economy is based on incentivizing debt. Path of least resistance. Work with your economy, not against it. It isn't hard to see this.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 6x growth beats out 3x growth in stocks in the same period Was that a typo? Average market returns are much higher than that.

The article states that since 2009 the stock market has tripled while housing markets have doubled. I'm just reassessing that example with 5x leverage.

Oh I didn’t realize those gains were leverage adjusted. But shouldn’t you compare to trading on margin to be apples to apples?

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#418
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expected maintenance, LOL. Just saying as an older guy if you're not factoring in HVAC replacements, roof replacements, driveway replacements, appliance replacements, even the expenses of major yard work, you will miss thousands per year on average. I'll see these estimates online where people laughably expect to spend less than $1K/yr on home maint, LOL I spend that much on the roof averaged by year, and I spent mor…

Though 1k is a pretty naive estimate, 12k a year is just not right. I'm having trouble coming up with any way to prove it wrong, besides common sense. Think of the price of appliances, and then think of how many you can get with 12k. Reshingling a roof tends to be around 5k, and lasts for 30 years. I can't even imagine a scenario where you spend 12k a year.

Having owned a 2500 sq ft home on 0.25 acres, honestly 12k is totally within the realm of reason. A roof may last for 30 years, but odds are the home you are in has a roof that needs replacing sooner than that, so you only have 5-10 years to save for its replacement.

Also don't forget that the previous tenant let his kids shoot BBs at the siding, so the water has been leaking in causing it to wear faster and faster, your wife doesn't like how it looks like grandma's house, and for some reason the toilet in the master bath takes 10 minutes to refill the tank and it drives you nuts just often enough that you seriously consider ripping out the requisite walls just to re-run the old copper piping.

Oh and when you bought this home, did you already happen to have a lawn mower, edger, fertilizer spreader, and such? Are you planning on utilizing that extra space to build a raised garden and then realize half-way through that if you don't install an automated drip system you'll have sunk all those costs into a garden that dies the moment you leave on a 7-day family vacation?

Oh yea and the last owner definitely was heavy handed with the salt on the driveway, and you don't need to replace it now, but better put $100 a month into a savings fund for the inevitable replacement 5 years from now.

Not to mention that the cement that was poured to make the back porch has re-leveled itself at a 4 degree angle and when you host guests they bump the picnic table such that it always wobbles and spills everyone's drinks. Fortunately you don't have to excavate it and re-pour because there now exist companies that use advanced machinery to just backfill in extra concrete to level the pads, but it still is going to put you out $2k.

/end rant

Needless to say, as I look at our next home, I am realizing there is this delightful sweet-spot between home ownership and renting an apartment: townhomes in master-planned communities. The HOA covers building _and_ yard maintenance, but you have full creative power over the inside. No need to store shovels and lawn mowers, and your weekends are free to walk the park that is literally across the street (I'm looking at you, Daybreak, in South Jordan UT). Oh and the single-car garage isn't a big deal because transit is built straight to the community, and you are within walking distance to convenience stores and the pub.

It's basically "a house" with all the negative parts taken care of by paying the HOA who can deal with the economies of scale, making the cost very worth it if you are an engineer with a little bit of cash to spare each month.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article states that since 2009 the stock market has tripled while housing markets have doubled. I'm just reassessing that example with 5x leverage.

I find it hard to believe if even the majority of housing markets have doubled. Economic growth mostly seems contained to a few established and up and coming cities.

Yeah one flaw with the OP is that you can’t compare against average housing returns. Buying a house or condo in Silicon Valley or New York is going to out perform the average due to supply, demand, and geography.

The OP is essentially really saying buy a total stock market fund instead of REIT, which isn’t that controversial.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#420
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own my home in a relatively cheap COL area... I would rather rent. Houses nickel and dime you to death. The expenses pile up at both the front and back of the transaction... that is, when you buy and finally sell. Please show me how the small increases in property value multiplies my initial investment. The problem is most people don't move sideways or down... they move up, thus negating any windfall in investment…

> Please show me how the small increases in property value multiplies my initial investment. You're leveraged 5x (say), so you get 5x as much growth. Just pulling numbers out of nowhere, let's imagine you buy a $200k house with 40k down; after ten years the house is worth a nominal $400k which is $300k in today's dollars. You've gained 100k on your initial 40k, whereas if you'd invested the $40k in the stock market a…

>>You've gained 100k on your initial 40k

You haven't really gained 100k. You have gained 100k multiplied by your percentage of equity, i.e. the amount you have paid so far into your mortgage principal. Assuming it's a 30-year mortgage, that will be around 30%, so around 30k.

(And of course, the house price doubling in 10 years is a bit unrealistic unless you live in a booming area.)

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