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SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

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Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#411

Post by claytonjy »

scrooched_moose wrote: post #366
Tloewald wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UX is the bane of usability (at least as practiced). E.g. We've had professional "UX" designers seriously contend that "cancel" buttons should be made to not look like buttons. The joke at a certain large company was that if the UX designers had their way every default button would be big and green and every other button would be invisible. True usability is about helping people make the correct decision, not just be…

I'm a daily user of some of the most complicated engineering software on the market. Every single release promises "Easier to use!" but all they do is make the most basic beginner-level actions more prominent and hide all medium to advanced level important functionality behind 3 extra clicks. The end result is a beginner can do a tutorial exercise in 20 minutes instead of 30, while any true day to day work in the sof…

Do you think this tradeoff between easy-to-start-using and power-use-friendly is intrinsic, a scale that designers need to choose where they want their software in it, or is it possible to hit both ends? Does anyone have examples of things they think address both beginners and power users adequately?

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#412

Post by dotancohen »

wfunction wrote: post #266
jbg_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Conditions were clear. The pilot landing would likely have seen the aircraft on the ground in plenty of time to go around. * Conditions were clear. The pilot landing would have an increasing probability of noticing their mistake from lights on the runway and taxiway as they got closer to landing. * After being alerted that the pilot landing could see lights on what they thought was the runway, the ATC would likely…

> And finally, the one factor that happened to be the first of these to happen: > * Multiple pilots looking directly toward the oncoming aircraft, one of whom alerted ATC. I don't get this. You're an engineer/pilot/whomever filing for {the current system/pilot/plane/whatever-needs-approval} to get approved. The power-that-be (e.g. FAA) asks you what your safety margins are. You cite "other pilots looking directly at…

If you think that's bad, wait until you discover what safety margins exist on the highways, and how much professional training drivers receive.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#413

Post by [deleted] »

wfunction wrote: post #266
jbg_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Conditions were clear. The pilot landing would likely have seen the aircraft on the ground in plenty of time to go around. * Conditions were clear. The pilot landing would have an increasing probability of noticing their mistake from lights on the runway and taxiway as they got closer to landing. * After being alerted that the pilot landing could see lights on what they thought was the runway, the ATC would likely…

> And finally, the one factor that happened to be the first of these to happen: > * Multiple pilots looking directly toward the oncoming aircraft, one of whom alerted ATC. I don't get this. You're an engineer/pilot/whomever filing for {the current system/pilot/plane/whatever-needs-approval} to get approved. The power-that-be (e.g. FAA) asks you what your safety margins are. You cite "other pilots looking directly at…

[deleted]

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#414

Post by throwanem »

wfunction wrote: post #410
throwanem wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For goodness's sake all I'm asking for is a little display with a map that shows where the plane thinks it's going. Any commercial aircraft with a glass cockpit, which at this point is ~all of them, already has one of these.

I mean including information/labels like "taxiway XYZ" that could make a stupid mistake like this obvious. Or are you saying they already do this?

No, they don't already do this. As 'phdp already explained, there are no instrument landing systems installed in the US which include GPS augmentation. So, while the moving map will show the same position information as at any other time when the aircraft's GPS receiver has sufficient signal, it's going to look something like this: http://www.stratomaster.eu/lignes/mgl/photos/enscr4.jpg

Meanwhile, the ICAO approach plate for SFO's runway 28R looks like this: http://redwoodva.net/lib/skins/en/images/events/charts/ksfo_... - trivially simple to comprehend at a glance, I am sure you will agree!

As far as "stupid mistake" goes, you sure do seem quick to judge professionals in a highly technical field totally unrelated to your own, and of which you've made clear you are happy to preserve your ignorance. Were I you, I'd hope my own errors meet with a greater extent of charity than that precious little you see fit to mete out. But that's your problem, not mine. Good luck with it.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#415

Post by wfunction »

throwanem wrote: post #414
wfunction wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean including information/labels like "taxiway XYZ" that could make a stupid mistake like this obvious. Or are you saying they already do this?

No, they don't already do this. As 'phdp already explained, there are no instrument landing systems installed in the US which include GPS augmentation. So, while the moving map will show the same position information as at any other time when the aircraft's GPS receiver has sufficient signal, it's going to look something like this: http://www.stratomaster.eu/lignes/mgl/photos/enscr4.jpg Meanwhile, the ICAO approach p…

> As far as "stupid mistake" goes, you sure do seem quick to judge professionals in a highly technical field totally unrelated to your own

The heck? Everyone makes stupid mistakes. Hell, I make more of them than a lot of people I know. That's why there are procedures and checklists and redundancies and automated systems -- to prevent stupid mistakes, evne by the best people. Where was I ever judging the pilot for heaven's sake?! Maybe you could be a little more charitable with how you judge people?

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#416

Post by throwanem »

wfunction wrote: post #415
throwanem wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't already do this. As 'phdp already explained, there are no instrument landing systems installed in the US which include GPS augmentation. So, while the moving map will show the same position information as at any other time when the aircraft's GPS receiver has sufficient signal, it's going to look something like this: http://www.stratomaster.eu/lignes/mgl/photos/enscr4.jpg Meanwhile, the ICAO approach p…

> As far as "stupid mistake" goes, you sure do seem quick to judge professionals in a highly technical field totally unrelated to your own The heck? Everyone makes stupid mistakes. Hell, I make more of them than a lot of people I know. That's why there are procedures and checklists and redundancies and automated systems -- to prevent stupid mistakes, evne by the best people. Where was I ever judging the pilot for hea…

I mean you've already said you don't know what you're talking about ("I have no idea what [Cat III] means.") but you're totally cool with taking a confidently authoritative tone on it anyway, I'm not sure what other conclusion anyone should be expected to draw.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#417

Post by caf »

glenneroo wrote: post #203
caf wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clock that flashes 12:00 is still right twice a day.

Unless you live in a country which uses 24-hour clocks, which is most of the world. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_representation_b...

Do unset clocks flash 12:00 in locations that use 24-hour clocks, or do they flash 00:00?

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#418

Post by wfunction »

throwanem wrote: post #416
wfunction wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as "stupid mistake" goes, you sure do seem quick to judge professionals in a highly technical field totally unrelated to your own The heck? Everyone makes stupid mistakes. Hell, I make more of them than a lot of people I know. That's why there are procedures and checklists and redundancies and automated systems -- to prevent stupid mistakes, evne by the best people. Where was I ever judging the pilot for hea…

I mean you've already said you don't know what you're talking about ("I have no idea what [Cat III] means.") but you're totally cool with taking a confidently authoritative tone on it anyway, I'm not sure what other conclusion anyone should be expected to draw.

> I mean you've already said you don't know what you're talking about ("I have no idea what [Cat III] means.") but you're totally cool with taking a confidently authoritative tone on it anyway, I'm not sure what other conclusion anyone should be expected to draw.

...Did you come here just to fuel flames and burn people, or are you here to have a legitimate discussion about the subject?

You're totally cool being literally in ad-hominem territory at this point and you're lecturing me about not judging people I never even judged?

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