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Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

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Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#411

Post by pm90 »

gtaylor wrote: post #403
pm90 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids. > Life tends to have respo…

> That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that. This is the case for many life decisions. I don't see how this is a helpful addition to the conversation. * Move to another state? There will be big life implications. * Change careers? Ditto. * Go to college? * Go _back_ to school? * Spend loads of free time hacking away instead of getting o…

> It's just another decision with pros and cons.

I can understand why some people here are so sensitive about this particular topic. Anyways, no, it is definitely NOT the same as any of the decisions you mentioned above. Having another HUMAN BEING is a commitment of ginormous proportions. You are responsible for raising a kid, for being there when they need you the most, through teenage phase, and (luckily? hopefully?) have good relationship as adults. All the while, supporting them financially and emotionally until they land on their feet. And even then, the parental bonds of love and care are never truly severed...you are connected to that person for your whole life. Tell me one of those decisions you mention above that are similar to this. Its absolutely a huge decision, and all of this must NOT be discounted, especially when young people are attempting to make a decision.

Also, one more really really important point about all the decisions you stated is simply: you can choose to change your mind about a decision you make, but not so with children.

> It sounds like you don't want kids. That's cool, I'm glad you know what you want. But no need to hype up this decision to have kids or not as scary or some kind of albatross.

No, its not hype at all, as I've explained above. And despite all the cons I still have an open mind about it. But please don't try to convince people its all flowers and unicorns. Give them the pros and cons and let them make the decision.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#412

Post by jwr »

majkinetor wrote: post #228
jwr wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed. I find it impossible to work in the afternoons/evenings, because even if you find a moment, it's too hard to concentrate and do meaningful (e.g. hard) stuff. Make the best of your work hours. The idea of a boring job "for money" and fun/learning stuff afterwards is outdated. Don't waste your life on a boring job. Work time should be when you do fascinating stuff and learn.

That is totally unrealistic. No job will fit your interest 100% unless you are lucky bastard. Boring jobs are the rule. The point is to make boring stuff less borring.

I beg to disagree. I don't consider myself a "lucky bastard", but I define my own job(s) and everything I do is fascinating, I learn new things all the time. I don't do boring stuff.

Sure, there are compromises (plenty of people make more money), and it took me a while to get to where I am, but it proves that it is possible and not through luck, but rather a well-thought through approach and careful strategic thinking.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#413

Post by pavel_lishin »

nscalf wrote: post #397

Just to note, I'm 23 and have no kids. I've heard comments like this in every possible form before---"Once you get out of college and get a job, you won't have time to...", "Once you're at a startup, you won't have time to...", "Once you start volunteering after work, you won't have time for...". It's nonsense, you make time for what you think is important. I wake up at 5:30 am to train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I read wh…

For what it's worth, planning when you have kids is much harder than without.

You plan on going to bed at 10pm and getting up at 5:30 to train? Cool, but are you going to be in any shape to train when you're back awake at 11:30, 1:30, 2:00, 2:15, 4:30, and 5:15? Are you going to be in any shape to study and retain that knowledge when you spent four hours of your night walking around so your kid could sleep?

That gets better as they get older, but if you told me that "it just takes planning!" after I'd gotten two hours of sleep, you might have had to demonstrate some Jiu-Jitsu, because I'd very badly want to slap you.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#414

Post by magic_beans »

stedaniels wrote: post #129
xrd wrote: post #60

It's a great question. Get clear on the myths you develop after having kids. The biggest for me is: I only have ten minutes here, fifteen minutes there. I need focused hours of time to build something. That is just a story. When my first child was born, I used the time to write an app late at night while I was getting my wife some sleep. I called it the one handed blogging tool, because I needed a way to blog with on…

One handed typing? That's great, I'm glad it works for you. All babies and people are built differently. To call (what I imagine to be the majority) those babies that require attention, and those people who can't coherently code when giving their baby their attention, a myth. Sheesh. I wish you all the best.

The OP may have chosen the wrong word with "myth". He simply means that new parents create limitations for themselves in their belief that it is utterly impossible to do anything outside of parenting. The OP is saying that meaningful work can be done in the 15 minutes your baby might be asleep. A year of 15 minutes adds up to a lot.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#415

Post by pm90 »

magic_beans wrote: post #402
pm90 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. Its easy to see why: without lots of children the society would simply die out. This is a very nuanced point though. As a young, somewhat single developer, I'm incredibly grateful to wo…

You may not have met the right person yet. It doesn't feel so much like "settling down" as much as "co-captain in life's adventures."

Possible...I haven't stopped looking; that's an adventure in itself haha.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#416

Post by pavel_lishin »

microtonal wrote: post #81
jcpst wrote: post #12

At first, it will be hard. You may not have any spare time. After the newborn phase, the amount of spare time you have will slowly start to go back up again. Enjoy it, they aren't little babies for long. You will be well aware of how precious that time is, in a way that your pre-parent self could not comprehend. I usually have about 4-5 hours of time after the kids go to bed. During this time I either program, talk w…

At first, it will be hard. You may not have any spare time. After the newborn phase, the amount of spare time you have will slowly start to go back up again. Interesting... My experience has been the opposite, the first ~6 months they sleep so much that there is plenty of time to do things. Then you get a phase where they start to crawl and then walk around. In that phase, you have to be attentive all the time to ens…

> the first ~6 months they sleep so much that there is plenty of time to do things.

They sleep a lot, but they don't sleep at a stretch. It's hard to motivate yourself to do something when you get six hours of sleep in 45 minute increments.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#417

Post by swalsh »

nscalf wrote: post #397

Just to note, I'm 23 and have no kids. I've heard comments like this in every possible form before---"Once you get out of college and get a job, you won't have time to...", "Once you're at a startup, you won't have time to...", "Once you start volunteering after work, you won't have time for...". It's nonsense, you make time for what you think is important. I wake up at 5:30 am to train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I read wh…

Kids actually are different. If you put them to bed early, that usually means they're up early. Your 5:30 jujitsu is gone... sorry, it's now 5:30 breakfast and play time. Your 9 or 10 hour work day is now a solid 8 hours. Your daycare defined the times you can arrive and leave. You get home, and now it's playtime. When he goes to bed, you can crack out that laptop. You're going to be tired.But that's the time you can find.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#418

Post by pm90 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #410
pm90 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. Its easy to see why: without lots of children the society would simply die out. This is a very nuanced point though. As a young, somewhat single developer, I'm incredibly grateful to wo…

> > it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! > I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. I think in a lot of societies, having kids doesn't quite restrict your options as much as modern American society - prior to this century, you'd likely still live surrounded by family and a community who could help you with a lot of the childcare. You could drop the kids off…

I agree completely. And I imagine, before the internet, having an extended family would have a lot of "tribal knowledge" about all the little idiosyncrasies of raising children as well.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#419

Post by magic_beans »

duderific wrote: post #381
unsigner wrote: post #173

I'm significantly worse in my job than what I remember from before I had kids. What I miss most was the "deep thinking" mode that I used to get into, when you think about a problem for days on end, and solutions and ideas start popping in your head while you're in the proverbial shower. This rarely happens to me nowadays - the life I have outside of work scrubs my mind clean like a metal brush the second I step into…

> I'm significantly worse in my job than what I remember from before I had kids. I'm not sure if I'm significantly worse in my job since I've had kids (I have a two and a half year old boy), but what I'm not able to do is keep up with "the kids" who get to work at 8:30 AM and leave at 7:00 PM, because they're young and single and no one is waiting at home for them. I try to leave at 5:45 PM so I can get home in time…

My workplace is probably half parents/new parents (late-twenties and thirties) and half single people. All the parents come in a little later and leave a little early. Not one of them is judged for it.

Not all workplaces are so toxic.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#420

Post by pm90 »

YZF wrote: post #409
pm90 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids. > Life tends to have respo…

Having children is definitely a bigger commitment than getting a dog ;) However the picture painted that your life is over financially or otherwise is a bit of an exaggeration. So it's not a fact that you can't go backpacking, drinking, or learn a new framework once you have children. Don't get me wrong, having kids is a huge change in your life, just not necessarily in the way people who don't have kids think. Every…

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply life is over after having children. I think we are in agreement over the basic facts. I've been brought up in a culture that places too much emphasis on having a family as the "right" thing to do so I try to find the downsides and/or tradeoffs as well, more for personal reasons than anything else.
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