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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#411

Post by aeharding »

mcv wrote: post #319
Scarblac wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also getting taught by amateurs, that just isn't a thing in the Netherlands. You learn to drive in a modified car (extra set of brakes, extra mirrors) with a qualified instructor next to you.

Wait, do people in the US not use professional driving instructors in modified instruction cars? Doesn't that cause a lot of accidents?

I applied for a permit (purely knowledge/eyesight test), and that allows you to drive any normal vehicle (class-A) as long as there is someone in the passenger seat over 25/at least 5 years possessing a driver's license (or something like that).

I went home and took the family car out on public streets with my Dad.

6 months later, I applied for my license. Simple 15 minute public roads driving test in the same family car.

Driving for the first time was scary -- one of the first streets I went down was one lane with cars parked on each side. Doing that without being used to the car's physical space (it was a large Suburban) is a little crazy.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#413

Post by [deleted] »

jerf wrote: post #405
smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

When you make a long list like that, the human intuitive norm is to start by assigning a roughly equal responsibility for each of them. However, it is rare to encounter a situation where some effect is obtained by 10 distinct factors all providing an equal contribution. (Think about it from an entropic point of view; that is one very specific configuration of contributions, vs. all the others in which they are not ba…

[deleted]

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#414

Post by 67726e »

angryredblock wrote: post #409
juiced wrote: post #239

Bullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".

Yeh, as an American driver I don't know how people open their doors in the city WITHOUT looking first. In rural areas where bikers ride on the sidewalk and are not super common, sure, but I can't remember a time driving in a city where I was NOT super paranoid about hitting a car or a cyclist or a pedestrian with my door.

I think with the influx of people moving into urban zones, you get a lot of the suburban "biking is for hippies, so who cares?" mentality. I moved into a city five years ago, and while I quickly learned about dooring both as a driver and cyclist, I can't help but wonder how many people just don't realize that it's "a thing". Couple that with the hatred I often see towards cyclists, and I can pretty easily see how people either don't know or don't care to look before opening a car door.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#415

Post by johanvts »

cr1895 wrote: post #226
johanvts wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in primary school and maybe high school I remember not wanting to wear a helmet because it looked silly. As a adult I think it would be a lot more silly to loose my life, health, ability to focus or to walk just because I didn't want to look silly. I'm not saying you are wrong, but that all people you know are. Besides the helmets these days really do look better, the producers have moved on from a purely…

Have you been to the Netherlands before and seen how effective and safe the cycling infra is even without people wearing helmets?

Yes, I have and it's great. Similar to Denmark where I live, but it's even safer if you wear a helmet. There is a clear benefit to wearing one and not much of cost so it's an easy choice IMO.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#416

Post by qb45 »

ralfn wrote: post #399
wobbleblob wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if car and a bike have an accident, by law, it is automatically the fault of the car, no matter what. Even if the person on the bike is drunk, driving in the wrong direction, etc. Both drivers and cyclists seem to believe this, but it is an exaggeration. The law says a court may decide to hold your (mandatory) liability insurance liable for some of the damage 'without having to prove your guilt'. It does not say yo…

>Both drivers and cyclists seem to believe this, but it is an exaggeration. I wonder how much safer this misbelief is making us though.

Well, it certainly makes for some people saying that bikes should be heavy so as to be better at ramming into cars. I have mixed feelings about your attitude to say the least.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#417

Post by scraft »

I am curious about how may incidents are caused from people that consistently are a bit lazy, and how many are caused by people that make a one off mistake. It is a genuine question. The reason it comes to my mind is recently I was doing a three point turn (actually a 20 point turn) to get out of my drive way, as other cars had left me with almost no space to get out, part of this manouver involved me having to pump up onto the kerb when reversing, and just after doing it, I saw a little girl appear from behind my car on her scooter, she then stopped and looked at me. I didn't find out from her (she disappear shortly after) whether I had almost hit her, or not, but either way it shook me up a little, as I appreciate I could have so easily caused an accident, and I would say I am a very careful, cautious driver. In this particular scenario other road users had left the cars parked in a way that bumping up the kerb was my only option, but I simply didn't see this small girl, I think she came from behind a parked car, so I couldn't see her. Luckily no harm was done, but it shook me up a little. Hopefully it'll reduce my chances of having a similar incident in future as it'll make more more vigilent to my surroundings.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#418

Post by rdeboo »

juiced wrote: post #239

Bullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".

I (also Dutch) also have never heard about this practice of using your right hand to open the left door. It's an interesting idea, but certainly not common practice. I have never in my entire life seen anyone open their door like that. People just know that you must start looking backwards first and then open the door slowly.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#419

Post by qb45 »

tqkxzugoaupvwqr wrote: post #324
mcv wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just how you're treated. Research has shown that cyclists wearing helmets tend to put more trust in their helmet, whereas cyclists without helmet tend to be more careful.

There is also a study that shows other traffic participants engage in riskier overtaking when a cyclist wears a helmet. Instead of leaving 1.5 m space when the cyclist is on the side of the car, drivers leave an average of 0.5 m space for cyclists wearing a helmet. If I remember correctly, drivers see helmets as increased safety for the cyclist and feel they can engage in less safe behavior because it evens out. Edit…

I heard that someone determined a long-haired blonde wig to perform best in that regard.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#420

Post by johanvts »

imjustsaying wrote: post #378
johanvts wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark. The percentage of people here wearing helmets seems to be dropping again after having been on the rise for the past few years (based on my anecdotal evidence of biking around copenhagen), but it's still relatively rare. I know at least 3 people who had simple accidents while not wearing helmets and while they did not die they suffered severe concussions that take years to fully recover from (if ever). One…

Do bike helmets protect against concussions?

Yes, I think that is one of their main purposes. It basically takes the impact energy and distributes it over a larger area and over longer time, reducing the risk of permanent brain damage. This website has some charts of a lab experiment showing the difference in the energy spike felt by the brain. http://www.bhsi.org/general.htm
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