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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#411

Post by mikeash »

mentalpiracy wrote: post #308
lichform wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disdain and disgust impressed on the elderly in this issue in particular is distressing. Seeing people advocate for selective voting or implying that the younger persons' views are worth more because of their older countrymen's vicinity to expiration is personally upsetting as a self-loathing Millenial.

As another self-loathing millennial, it's also distressing to empirically see the detrimental effect of my elders making extremely poor choices that will fundamentally affect my life much more than theirs. Nobody really wants to disenfranchise certain voters. But it doesn't mean that we aren't frustrated with their poor choices either.

Well then, go vote. The reason old people get their way so much more is because they vote.

I heard a young lady interviewed on the BBC this morning, talking about how young people felt betrayed because this choice was made by people who wouldn't feel the negative consequences. When the interviewer pointed out that a lot of young people didn't vote, she blamed the negative nature of the campaigns for that, rather than acknowledging that maybe if people want a certain outcome they should vote that way.

It's the same situation in the US. The will of the people and the actions of the government don't line up all that well, and a lot of it is because young people don't vote. The government goes along with the will of the voters reasonably well.

I'm sure you vote, but a lot of people like you just stay home. If you don't want your elders making all the decisions, convince your cohorts to go have their say.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#412

Post by rayiner »

sgustard wrote: post #376
rayiner wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's literally as bad as colonization. But the symbolism is useful in showing that the focus on economic impacts is utterly misguided. Democracy isn't about optimizing for economics; it's about people deciding how they want to be governed. "Who should be able to tell me what to do?" That's a sacrosanct decision! It shouldn't be made by bureaucrats and intellectuals looking at the impact on currency pri…

The EU does not "govern" Britain in any meaningful sense, but I agree the "independence" strawman was a strong motivator for the separatist movement.

It does: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3...

> The regulation is directly applicable in all EU countries. This means that it:

> - applies immediately as the norm in all EU countries, without needing to be transposed into national law,

> - creates rights and obligations for individuals and they can therefore invoke it directly before national courts,

> - can be used as a reference by individuals in their relationship with other individuals, EU countries or EU authorities.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#413

Post by nickik »

rimantas wrote: post #84
carsongross wrote: post #41

This sort of distain-for-plebes arrogance on the part of the elites is why they will continue to be surprised by events for the foreseeable future.

Why not to have referendum on taxes? Care to guess the outcome?

In addition to the other voter, Switzerland population also restricted the government into tight budgets and debt reduction.

If you give people the options they will make okish choices. enough okish choices for a long time yield a great democracy.

Switzerland is also not in the EU for the same reason, we voted against joining after the political classes singed us up for it. Now if you suggest joining the EU most of the Swiss population would laugh at you. Why would anybody join such a horrible shit show of an institution.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#414

Post by sbmassey »

DominikR wrote: post #337

Why can't these people just accept a democratic decision without painting those who voted in an undesired way as retards? Every major voting decision in the last 10 years was painted (in basically all media) as the smart and educated ones vs the retards, bigots, racists or even nazis. With this attitude we are one step away from abolishing democracy altogether. Obviously because we must protect the stupid ones from t…

Western culture as a whole pretty dumb these days - we used to have the Bible and the classics as common cultural touchstones, but nowadays the only shared culture is idiotic stuff like Star Wars, so most people get their fundamental ideas of how the world works from there, rather than anything that touches on the real world.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#415

Post by capote »

cookiecaper wrote: post #212
capote wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title is a pretty clear and accurate summary of what's happening.

The title implies that a significant number of British people voted to leave the EU without even knowing what it was, and that their opinion is therefore uninformed and should not be respected. You believe that's a "pretty clear and accurate summary"? Even if you do, you at least recognize the bias and that it's not really fitting for a supposedly-neutral news outlet?

I recognize bias, and I recognize that I myself am biased. But I also maintain that the title is accurate, and the implications of the bias are reasonable to draw. Whether or not this speaks to the quality of the publication is up to anyone, and I might agree with you if I had read more from the WP in the past.

It's a truth that a lot of people are googling things like this inside the UK and the adverb "frantically" I believe reasonably addresses how large the amount of searches is.

I also believe that the implication stands solid, that a lot of the Brexit voters had no idea what they voted on, what the implications of a Brexit are, and were largely motivated by things like fear of immigrants, which intellectuals seem to agree is a... not so smart fear to have.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#416

Post by MrZongle2 »

DominikR wrote: post #337

Why can't these people just accept a democratic decision without painting those who voted in an undesired way as retards? Every major voting decision in the last 10 years was painted (in basically all media) as the smart and educated ones vs the retards, bigots, racists or even nazis. With this attitude we are one step away from abolishing democracy altogether. Obviously because we must protect the stupid ones from t…

"Why can't these people just accept a democratic decision without painting those who voted in an undesired way as retards?"

Because if your opposition isn't composed entirely of morons, there's a chance that your position might actually be wrong. And some people can't handle that possibility.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#417

Post by knorby »

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #324
gshulegaard wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Californian, I am genuinely curious what you think is the problem with California at the moment?

In Switzerland referenda are a very institutionalized and regular decision making tool. It is mostly used to get rid of political gridlock and making sure special interests don't filter out the will of the people (director proposal). That, combined with the fact that in Switzerland there is no real parliamentary "opposition" (everybody voted in forms the government) turns the whole game into a problem solving process…

Ballot props are far more regular in CA than headlines suggest. The requirement for signatures keeps dropping as voter turnout drops, and it doesn't take that many resources to get something on the ballot. An appealing title and description make it fairly easy to get a lot of maybe not so great spending passed, despite reasonably good efforts to keep voters informed. I don't know that the overall function is that different from what you describe, given that there isn't really a strong opposition party in the state, but it is hard to get the majority of people to really think critically about 5 different obscure spending packages.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#418

Post by ultramancool »

devy wrote: post #298
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

FDR summed it up pretty nicely in this quote: Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education. And it seems that a lot of Britons requires exactly that: education before making a wise decision. [1] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/franklind402955.h...

Are you trying to imply they didn't "make a wise decision" or perhaps that your political opposition is stupid?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#419

Post by mikeash »

saynsedit wrote: post #391
mikeash wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know anyone personally who has expressed any favorable view of Trump. Yet clearly they exist in fairly large numbers, so I don't think that should prevent me from acknowledging them.

The support of Trump has data behind it. Second-hand anecdotes of people claiming they'll vote for Trump just to see the system come down is not data. Without data, it may be such a minority of people that it's not worth significant consideration in a discussion. I'm apt to believe it's an extreme minority given it's an extreme view.

Maybe so, and maybe people who voted in the EU referendum without understanding the EU are likewise an extreme minority. If you want to stick with easily quantifiable facts then I don't think this is the right discussion for you.
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