Live data from Hacker News

SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

washingtonpost.com

411–420 of 515 posts

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#411
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm well aware of why people do it. It's rude regardless. If you disagree with someone either use those little arrows next to the post, make a counter-argument, or STFU. Posting "you're full of shit" or "citation needed" is lazy and rude. You don't want to speak up with something more sensible? Fine. That's why those little arrows next to the comment exist. Don't post rude garbage instead.

It's rude to use [citation needed] to belittle another person. It's certainly unacceptable to tell someone they're full of shit. It's also rude to tell someone to shut the fuck up. It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from. The voting system is good on HN, but it's limited. If you post something controversial, but possibly accurate, then if only people who don't like what you…

> It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from.

It is absolutely rude to demand proof in a conversation. And this is a forum for having conversations.

A conversation isn't a research project or the pursuit of absolute truth. It's merely a social convention to find out what others are thinking and feeling.

To go around telling people they're liars or to ask them to prove that they're not liars is rude beyond belief in such a setting.

If you feel so passionate about the issue, do your own research and provide your own citations against. Nothing wrong with that. But demand that the person who said something you don't like should do it for you? Rude.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? The homeless are here because the city attracts more people than there are room for (development reasons) and because SF spends huge sums to care for homeless immigrants

No. 71% of San Francisco's homeless population once lived in the city: http://sfist.com/2016/02/11/71_of_sf_homeless_once_had_homes... "Seventy-one percent (71%) of respondents reported they were living in San Francisco at the time they most recently became homeless, an increase from 61% in 2013. Of those, nearly half (49%) had lived in San Francisco for 10 years or more. Eleven percent (11%) had lived in San Francis…

29% is a lot though.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#413
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude to use [citation needed] to belittle another person. It's certainly unacceptable to tell someone they're full of shit. It's also rude to tell someone to shut the fuck up. It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from. The voting system is good on HN, but it's limited. If you post something controversial, but possibly accurate, then if only people who don't like what you…

> It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from. It is absolutely rude to demand proof in a conversation. And this is a forum for having conversations. A conversation isn't a research project or the pursuit of absolute truth. It's merely a social convention to find out what others are thinking and feeling. To go around telling people they're liars or to ask them to prove that they…

Well, then, we have a fundamental difference of opinion. If I see someone make claims that the vast majority of homeless people are completely unhelpable because of a specific example which they have observed anecdotally, then I'll ask for empirical evidence.

Nobody is calling that person a liar. Asking someone for evidence does not necessarily mean they consider that person a liar. They may believe they are mistaken. They may be interested in understanding how they came to their conclusions. They may want to understand why someone's world view is so different to their own.

You should ask yourself why you consider asking for evidence on a discussion forum rude. It sounds like you feel it's overly confrontational. If that's the case, then you might want to consider your own confrontation (ala "If you feel so passionate about the issue, do your own research and provide your own citations against. Nothing wrong with that. But demand that the person who said something you don't like should do it for you? Rude.")

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#414

I'm 41, was born in SF and have been living back in the bay area since 97. In all my years in living in SF, or the bay area at large, I have never once had an altercation or otherwise problem with a homeless person. In fact, I give them stern talkings to occasionally; Two days ago there was a homeless person on Market whos pants were falling down - I told him very sternly "Pull your pants up" and he did so. There was…

I'm 29, where do you learn this kind of leadership?

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know why I created [citation needed] on Wikipedia? Because the amount of ill-informed, badly thought out, ridiculous claims on Wikipedia articles were getting out hand. I started removing them to the talk page, but then that same person not only refused to explain where they got their information from, but would put the "fact" back into the article. This would then perpetuate incorrect information. One day I had…

You're the creator of [citation needed]? [Citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Citation...

Chris Sherlock was Ta bu shi da yu. Dozens of people can confirm that, I was at the first Australian meet up. I met David Gerard and co in London. Even Jimmy Wales can confirm it.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#416
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The political argument against HF comes down to the fact that it may not actually work very well. People opposed to HF tend to argue: 1.) HF is not effective at keeping recipients out of the criminal justice system. (This finding is controversial as, especially in Canada, 2-3 years often go by between arrest and subsequent criminal punishment.) 2.) HF creates 'slums'. (This finding is controversial as the solution is…

Thanks for further exploring the ideas of HF. Do you support anything more than HF?

Homelessness is damned near impossible. If we realistically want to stop homelessness, we need to:

- end racism.

- end childhood sexual abuse.

- decriminalize all drugs, treat addiction as a health problem and make addictive drugs available under provincial prescription drug programs.

- invest billions of dollars into mental health care.

If you think you can accomplish any of the above, I'll not only vote for you, but I'll quit my job and work for you (for free).

Traditional anti-homelessness programs kind of stink because they work in stages. Candidates have to pass a stage in order to move onto the next and if they fail, they move backwards. The problem with this is that it is hard to stay motivated to stay sober if you live in the same dormitory style shelter where you used to live, where all of your goods are subject to theft, and where you are surrounded by people who are high/drunk on the substance you are addicted to! The other problem is that if you stumble, you generally move backwards and end up even further away from independent housing.

I am Canadian where a striking percentage of the homeless population (especially in the west) is aboriginal. In Canada, we have something called The Indian Act which provides certain benefits to 'status Indians'. One of the benefits it provides is that income earned on a reserve is not subject to federal income tax. The big problem with this is that reserves are often horrid places with absolutely no employment and substandard housing. The second biggest problem is that the Indian Act also works to make the concept of status extinct, but that's far from the point. As an example, the reserve where I spent the first two years of my life (I am not aboriginal, but my Dad was in the RCMP) is more like a concentration camp than a community.

I argue (and this pisses just about everyone off) that one way to cut down on aboriginal homelessness would be to amend the Indian Act so that any money invested on a reserve (provided that the venture employed a certain number of people) would trigger an immediate tax credit and not be subject to any Federal capital gains taxes. Further, I'd argue that any profits earned from these ventures should never be subject to any form of Federal income tax.

Because aboriginal people with status (aka 'status Indians') do not pay federal income tax, if you provided strong tax incentives to investment, you can see a route through which manufacturing in Canada has a similar cost structure to manufacturing in either Asia or in our NAFTA partner countries. Employment on reserves would encourage aboriginal people to move back to their communities, provide more pressure to the federal government to fix the woeful state of housing, and ultimately give people an easier route to gainful employment. Studies have shown that when you bring aboriginal people back into their community and their culture, their mental health/addiction outcomes improve.

Alas, the odds of that happening are likely equivalent to the odds that I will be drafted in the first round of the next NHL draft. (I am 38 years old and don't know how to skate).

So, I think that HF is about the best policy that we have. Though, I would like to see it amended.

Purely from a business point of view, I would like to see HF provide more services (financial and otherwise) to the landlords that participate. I argue that landlords who participate in HF often put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by doing so. Therefore, I would like to see strong municipal and federal tax incentives for their participation.

Further, I argue that HF programs themselves could do a far better job of moving their candidates into jobs that they can do. There is no way in hell that many of the people I know who would be HF candidates could ever work in a traditional 'job', but I would like HF to do a better job of exploring non-traditional options.

For example, I am heavy into street papers and think that panhandlers are likely the greatest marketing force on the planet. When a friend and I launched our paper, we gave out a few hundred copies to two highly trusted friends in hopes of doing a nice soft launch to work out the problems. The 'soft launch' generated absolutely massive media coverage - we were featured in every print publication, more than half of the radio stations, and 2/3 of the television stations in our city. It would have cost me thousands of dollars to get that kind of coverage at a PR firm. More interesting, our advertisers had tremendously high conversions, to the point that within two months, our advertisers were offering to pay more to keep their competitors out!

One good friend of mine who sold the magazine those first days suffered from schizophrenia and had spent most of his adult life panhandling. In one very upsetting conversation, he remarked that he always believed that people were following him around with microphones and he wasn't sure, but he was absolutely convinced that this time they were real.

Or, I'm reminded of my friend Scott, an insanely talented artist who buys canvases, paints them at night in his shelter, and then sells paintings on the street.

Consequently, I would argue that HF could turn into something of an incubator for street businesses. Everyone, even the homeless, has an incredible array of talent and often it is more a challenge of how to monetize the talent without contributing to the underlying problem. I can foresee all sorts of businesses from online/bricks and mortar art galleries, to graffiti remediation businesses, to clothing design companies, to full blown guerilla marketing teams emerging out of HF programs. The HF of my dreams would give candidates the option of learning basic building maintenance by providing ultra low cost maintenance/building management services to the landlords who participate.

I also tend to argue that HF needs to do a better job of attracting a more diverse set of professionals to run their programs. Traditionally, they draw from social workers whereas I tend to argue that they should be drawing more from business people. Startup founders in particular have so much in common with homeless people that it would be a match made in heaven.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#417
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people blasting the city claim the city isn't doing enough, and when shown that they are actually are providing a remarkable amount of support, it still isn't enough. 12-20k annually is more than a significant chunk of the population earns in wages.

I don't really know what your point is. The amount may be a large dollar figure, but it is clearly not enough to solve the problem, therefore the problem still exists. I'm curious how many people live in SF on 12-20k, but that's irrelevant. If someone has accommodation and is able to earn wages as a steady state, it is obvious that their costs will be less than a homeless person who needs mental health treatment, reh…

The point is that no amount of money will solve the problem with San Francisco's current approach (whatever that is). If they spend $50 million with zero effect, and they spend $100 million with zero effect, and they spend $150 million with zero effect, where do you guess the problem stands at the $200, $250, $500 marks?

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#418
I'm from San Francisco. I grew up here and I've lived here most of my life.

After high school, for about four and a half years, I was homeless.

I'm really good at programming computers, if it wasn't for that I might be homeless still.

I had emotional and social problems that I've been able to overcome. I'm one of the lucky ones. Many of the people I knew are dead, but in this age of instant connectivity and paranoia about surveillance I'll never know the fates of most my friends. We might as well be a lost tribe, uncontacted in the primeval forest. Except of course, that we weren't lost. Our lives played out in the same great concrete jungle/stage that yours does. Very few people wanted to find us.

That brings up an important thing, and this is as good a place to say it as any.

From the utmost bottom of my heart: Thank you.

To all those who gave of themselves and helped a random, smelly, weird homeless kid who you'll never see again, THANK YOU. I owe you my life. If it wasn't for the people who live the truth of our inherent connection with each other, who are moved by compassion and empathy to help selflessly, without asking for anything in return, I would certainly be dead, or worse: homeless and crazy in San Francisco. (heh heh)

I'll never cease from helping everyone around me so long as I draw breath because I owe the world my life.

If you have not been as fortunate as I have then here is the reason why you should do the same anyway:

We are one.

That homeless person there? That's YOU.

She's your mother, he's your father, that guy mumbling and shitting over there, he's your own son.

This is both metaphysical and very physical and real. The idea that we are separate individuals who can cordon off the parts of the world that we don't like is not real, not true. It's a "category one" error.

Here's a secret I learned on the street: The single most horrible sin we commit daily is to pass by a homeless person without acknowledging that person's humanity.

It's a monstrous crime.

You feel it every time, deep down, and it hurts, right there in your very soul.

It hurts.

There's nothing you can do or say, no ration argument you can make, that can obviate that bond. Nothing breaks it. As long as you draw breath you are owned and owed, one of us. Truly there are no individuals, to think so is fantasy, to live it, nightmare.

It seems like you grow callous but you don't, not really. Down under all that other B.S., not even that deep really, you feel it still. To turn away from another is like killing a part of yourself.

Homelessness is a symptom of a sick society. It's not the city government's problem, it's the whole city's problem, indeed the whole nation, the whole planet. We have emotional scars that prevent us from forming a coherent response to the situation (that's the only way so much money could be spent and have so little effect on the problem.) The issue isn't a matter of money (we have SO MUCH) it's a matter of spirit.

The individual homeless people would disappear as if by magic if we could just get our minds aligned with our hearts, because there is plenty of actual help and resources.

The very essence of the homelessness problem is that we, as a society, have to "break ourselves" and become humble. That's the only way for us to be vulnerable enough to reach out and heal the psychic and spiritual wounds at the root of it. An example: Try to imagine D. Trump manning a homeless food serving line. He's wearing an apron and spooning out hearty soup to people and he really gets it. What doea THAT do for your noggin?

P.S. Bonus campfire story: Here's hoping YOU never get, like, schizophrenia or something and wind up homeless yourself. It could happen. One of the scariest things that can happen to you is to get to know a few homeless people who were once JUST LIKE YOU! Mwoooo-hahhahahaha! Homelessness is something that only ever happens to someone else. Right? Nothing so tragic could ever happen to YOU to break you down and leave YOU shambling and covered in your own mess in a city full of people who don't care. Of course not, you're a good person. Homeless never happens to good people. That wouldn't make sense, would it? That wouldn't be fair. We all know the world is a fair place, right?

Let's talk about something else.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To play devil's advocate, he's right. You're not really agreeing with him though, are you? He's saying homeless people are an eyesore. You're saying the government should create more homeless shelters. I don't think you guys are even on the same planet in terms of your views.

>He's saying homeless people are an eyesore. You're saying the government should create more homeless shelters. I think the difference is found in empathy. Take two cases: One, I feel bad when I see a homeless person because my empathy makes me feel bad, and I want to remove that bad feeling and thus I help them. Getting them 'out of sight' might reduce the bad feeling a little, but any time I think of their being ho…

I think a lot of people fall into both categories. Most people have empathy and most people like beautiful things. What differs is the weight of one feeling vs the other in these types of situations.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#420
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, people really do think this way. Most of them have just learned not to voice their opinions in places where they will be criticized for it.

It can be difficult to change an opinion that someone refuses to voice.

Yup. We need to turn down our witchhunt culture and engage eachother with more open dialog and mutual respect. If someone holds a differing view, they often have a good reason for it. At the very least, people can get down to where their assumptions differ. And once we've identified assumptions, we can try to test them with data.
Post reply on HN