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State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

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Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#411

Post by jacquesm »

dan_dimerman wrote: post #393
jacquesm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

it's not a coincidence. I think the correlation between Islam and violence is too strong to ignore for tolerance and political correctness sake.

The correlation is simple: A bunch of fanatics has managed to hi-jack a substantial portion of their youths who are vulnerable because of their age and outlook on life nominally sharing the same faith with their handlers who they look up to, and doing their deeds for them (because they're too old, too cynical or too cowardly to do such deeds themselves).

So the correlation is strong but a lack of tolerance will fuel the generation of more of these, not less.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#412

Post by powertower »

jacquesm wrote: post #355
bengalister wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French too living in France, but sorry I am fed up of hearing that. Don't you think there's something wrong with Islam and its worshippers in the current days ? Not a single week without hearing about an attack made by islam integrists: Beiruth yesterday, Ankara few weeks ago. It is global, not a few crazy people, tens of thousands of them. Muslims in France have had hard time condeming the Charlie hebdo's attacks an…

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

> Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever

I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence, crime statistics, the shows of intolerance + hatred + violence that Muslims put out towards the natives, all the logic and reason, and all the correlations about the Muslim population in Europe?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#413

Post by Aoyagi »

jacquesm wrote: post #313
Fezzik wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? I would wager these people are not crazy in any clinical sense; they have been deluded by a religious upbringing and culturally supported religious fervor. It is disingenuous to say that religion is not a contributing factor, if not the primary factor. It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would ha…

If you go down that route you'll have a hard time explaining 'Jihad John' and the many western youths (including some that are extremely pale skinned) and that suddenly feel the need to join IS or do something else that is profoundly stupid and against their self-interests in every way.

"Jihad John" was from Kuwait and lived outside of UK most of his adult life.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#414

Post by electromage »

pyrrhotech wrote: post #212
Houshalter wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because people let it. There is little danger form actual terrorism, but there is massive danger from people's reactions to terrorism.

I think you'd feel differently if you had a loved one in the towers on 9/11

The point is that the effect that attack has had on the US for the past 14 years has been massive. Probably thousands of new security protocols are in place, that arguably wouldn't have stopped an attack like that had they been in place previously.

Every time they strike they put us on edge, and we make new laws and protocols to protect ourselves, giving up freedom in the name of security.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#415

Post by thaumasiotes »

Houshalter wrote: post #349
pyrrhotech wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Well I'll start with these two gwern essays: Terrorism is not Effective: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20Effective Terrorism is not About Terror: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror Just look at the statistics. The total number of people killed by terrorists is negligible. And 0 terrorist groups have ever won and achieved their stated goals. I remember the Boston bombing. That same…

> No one hates the chemical plant, and wants to go kill it.

Don't speak too soon. We have several political movements dedicated to this.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#416

Post by flubert »

Houshalter wrote: post #349
pyrrhotech wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Well I'll start with these two gwern essays: Terrorism is not Effective: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20Effective Terrorism is not About Terror: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror Just look at the statistics. The total number of people killed by terrorists is negligible. And 0 terrorist groups have ever won and achieved their stated goals. I remember the Boston bombing. That same…

>And 0 terrorist groups have ever won and achieved their stated goals.

Hmm. Wasn't it Bin Laden's goal to restore the Islamic Caliphate?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#417

Post by serge2k »

Houshalter wrote: post #349
pyrrhotech wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Well I'll start with these two gwern essays: Terrorism is not Effective: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20Effective Terrorism is not About Terror: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror Just look at the statistics. The total number of people killed by terrorists is negligible. And 0 terrorist groups have ever won and achieved their stated goals. I remember the Boston bombing. That same…

I don't think that bit about 0 groups achieving goals through terrorism is true. For example, didn't the Medellin cartel effectively use terrorism?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#418

Post by jacquesm »

tim333 wrote: post #409
jacquesm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

>Islam has nothing to do with this There seems a bit of wishful thinking there. We don't know the details but it seems quite likely Islam does have something to do with this.

It's a fair bet that quite a few or even all of the attackers (but let's stick with probably some) share the Islamic religion. But that does not mean that Islam per se has anything to do with it, what it points to is that religion is a tool that can be used to subvert people into committing acts that they would otherwise likely not engage in, especially when they're young, impressionable, stupid or all of the above.

So even if Islam is nominally involved and even if the fact that religious people have a fringe element (like all people!) that does not mean Islam is the cause of this. Just like Catholicism is not a religion centered around pederasty and just like atheists don't generally go around shooting people.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#419

Post by electromage »

sohaeb wrote: post #342

As a muslim lurker of this amazing site I would like to express my sympathy to those who died and hope everyone will be safe. Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even w…

I hope that people in the US will refrain from lashing out against Muslim Americans. Back in 2001 a local mosque and several Muslim-owned businesses were vandalized in response to the NYC attack.

It's very sad to see that kind of blind hatred.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#420

Post by tim333 »

sohaeb wrote: post #342

As a muslim lurker of this amazing site I would like to express my sympathy to those who died and hope everyone will be safe. Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even w…

If it makes you feel better I'm not sure Christian religious nuttiness is much better. Apparently:

>in the prelude to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, President George W. Bush told Jacques Chirac that Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East: "This confrontation is willed by God," he told the French leader, "who wants us to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins." [Wikipedia]

which kind of kicked of the present run of difficulties.

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