What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#411

Post by solofounder2 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 8:18 PM UTC

test1235 wrote: post #404

solofounder2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it likely begins at middle school or high school instead because this is the age an individual can more easily comprehend what computer engineering is actually all about. What I suspect is that generally speaking both men and women start out on equal footing in terms of having access to a computer to learn on and the capability to learn the craft. I suspect they are also on equal footing in terms of bo…

So maybe the answer isn't to get rid of star wars - maybe it's to get girls to stop being so judgemental about each others' hobbies?

If that were the case then the first step might be to somehow get grown up women to accept the root cause of the problem (young girls antagonizing other girls) because if older women are blaming the entire issue on men then they're never going to recognize that they may need to have difficult conversations with young women about their biases and behaviors in order to reverse this unfortunate situation..

Instead of accepting the responsibility of doing their part to foster an understanding in young women about subtle forms of bullying they instead prefer to embrace the victim role which is the view that little can be done to resolve the issue without somehow breaking free from their (imaginary) male oppressors.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#412

Post by jgroszko » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:17 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #334

icanhackit wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere)…

Interesting thoughts. I've been working in and managing software development teams for a while. The most striking thing about the female developers that I've worked with is how quiet they are (I wouldn't say 'introverted'). Ever see those studies that show that the most vocal person in a meeting is considered the most knowledgeable by the group (even if they're the least knowledgeable)? Yeah - software development ha…

> Ever see those studies that show that the most vocal person in a meeting is considered the most knowledgeable by the group (even if they're the least knowledgeable)? Yeah - software development has this to the extreme.

I think this happens a lot online too. It's super easy now to become an 'expert' on a particular technology just by writing a few blog posts about it, tweeting a bunch, or self-publishing a quick ebook. I suspect a lot of people feel like they aren't 'expert' enough to do these things despite them being done by relatively inexperienced people all the time.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#413

Post by MollyR » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:31 PM UTC

drakonka wrote: post #41

"female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines." The "neutral decor" sounds awfully boring for a computer classroom. I love art, natur…

I don't really understand why they think all females hate star wars. I love it, I even had a Darth Vader 3d puzzle. I also know a lot of women who like star wars, anime, and "geeky" stuff. It really sounds like they want to remove nerd culture from the tech industry.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#414

Post by galtwho » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

davmre wrote: post #380

lagadu wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the original post, however the question here is something to the tune of: "do women not like it or are they being pushed away (passively) by social factors?" If it's the former, then everything is fine, if it's the latter then there is room for improvement.

There's essentially no evidence that women are biologically predisposed against CS. There's quite a lot of evidence that social factors do push women away. That doesn't guarantee that there's no biological component, but even if there were, we'd still want to fix the social factors.

I think the evidence is to the contrary as I mentioned in my earlier comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10372862

and the inferences from those evidence is that women are predisposed to studies that involve human interactions and very less evidence that social factors play a part...

infact it is in unequal societies( relatively speaking) where social factors play a part that forces women to consider professions like CS.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#415

Post by galtwho » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #394

muddyrivers wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a software engineer, male, Asian. Somehow I can relate to the article. Although I was always one of the top students in math and science and enrolled the top university, I was both intimidated and kind of disgusted by the culture stereotypes at the beginning of my career. I had self doubts if I would ever become a good software engineer, since I was far from the stereotypes. Sometimes, I was deeply disgusted by…

This is a really good post. I identify with a lot in it. I double majored in english literature and math, and I added the math late. I was very interested in CS and math (it wasn't a thing yet in the mid 90s but now they call my interests "data science"). Of course, aspirations about what life will be like when you "grow up" are always a bit of a naive fantasy, but I thought (or at least hoped) that I would be able t…

>> I'm not sure the people who hire programmers really want to view them as adults. More like minions, talented but immature young men rotating through, happy with their video games and foosball tables and salaries that pay well enough to enjoy a delayed adolescence but never enough to put down roots and raise a family where they live and work…

I have seen this attitude several times and these guys are selling the products/services produced by such minions for real market value while the minions think they have hot the jackpot with the video game consoles. I keep telling such folk to charge top dollar and f&^*ing donate the unwanted money to charity or a struggling video game startup..

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#416

Post by ElComradio » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #374

ElComradio wrote: post #4

I see this as an echo of the makers and takers debate. "Give me a job." "MAKE me feel comfortable." "I am at your mercy." ... This the subtext I read. Other people want to create their own world; when someone tells them no or gets in their way, the attitude is "fuck you" not "change to accommodate me." This reaction may be biologically ingrained as a difference in the sexes; I am not sure- But I rarely, if ever, come…

> But I rarely, if ever, come across articles about women who have been fed up with some job and formed their own companies with other fed up women and strove to put their former coworkers/employers out of business http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-... It wasn't in IT, but it happened for many of the same reasons as stated here. The outcome is just one of several possibilities, and the media…

This is the thing, though. We are being told that it's just crappy for women in tech; we should be seeing female web devs, mobile devs, devops, product people, etc. banding together and doing things Their Way, and reading a bunch of glowing articles about how much better things are now, and how that creepy old boss who stared at their boobs a lot wishes he was nicer, and that kind of thing. I am unaware of an example of this actually happening, so it makes me very skeptical this is as big of a problem as we are being told.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#417

Post by galtwho » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 9:50 PM UTC

pavornyoh wrote: post #19

> What really keeps women out of Tech? It is because they don't want to be there. The opportunity is there for everyone to take thus men and women. I actually think women have an advantage in this space and it is up to them to see it and advantage of it. As a woman, I am tired this. If you want it, go and get it. There shouldn't be any special treatment. Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be t…

>> Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be there based merits etc.. Not because of gender, race etc.

I would add white privilege or majority privilege to that... quite a few blokes get a seat at the table cause they identify with the majority group or vice versa.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#418

Post by solofounder2 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 10:43 PM UTC

ashworth wrote: post #383

solofounder2 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "emo bitch" "that guy was kind of a dick" is an offhand comment that just means "rude" or "jerk" and you hear it all the time from college age women when referencing the slightest deviations from their standards of behavior. It refers to the male genitalia in a negative connotation and is terefor far more explicit than the dog word.

It sounds like you're trolling, but if you aren't: 1. One wrong does not make another wrong right. 2. "Dick" is used as an offhand comment usually because it is considered less offensive than other words with the same meaning, like "asshole" or "piece of shit". 3. I agree that women treat men badly as well. People suck. 4. Imagine your daughter or mother being called an "emo bitch" because they reacted angrily to an…

> One wrong does not make another wrong right.

True but the two neutralize each other when thinking in terms of a running tally of gender-specific offensive terminology.

> used as an offhand comment usually because it is considered less offensive than other words with the same meaning

the fact that it's considered less offensive simply illustrates a bias towards the acceptance of gender-specific negative remarks or "putdowns" when they're directed away from the feminine and towards the masculine. This goes to my point that actually women do throw a lot of these remarks around but we've just learned to tune them out. If a man makes a 'putdown' remark towards a young lady in class which references the female reproductive anatomy then he's on shaky ground and theoretically could have to worry about a lawsuit, but not the other way around.

> 4. Imagine your daughter or mother being called an "emo bitch" because they reacted angrily to an insult. Would you tell her "well at least they didn't explicitly insult your genitalia?"

I don't know a ton about the word "emo" but I assume it means "overly emotional" and the word "bitch" is a gender-specific word which insinuates that she's not attractive. While I'm sure we both agree that such a rude and insulting phrase is a terrible thing to say to anyone it's still only aimed at the individual.

On the other hand when you use a phallus reference as an implied negative connotation then you've just made a sexist remark because it denigrates an entire gender.

If I had to choose one or the other I'd rather my mother or daughter be exposed to rudeness or insult before obvious yet normalized sexist remarks.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#419

Post by dennisgorelik » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 10:56 PM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #397

Bostonian wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know that 50% of the brainpower relevant to computer science is female. Male and female brains differ, and it is quite possible that they choose to specialize in different areas.

You're right. It could be that women are in fact far more effective programmers than men, and we're missing out on 70% of the brain power. hard to say.

That is unlikely. Otherwise women would have already dominated programming industry.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#420

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 2:40 AM UTC

j2kun wrote: post #400

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's clearly bullying. The article describes things that I would have thought are really benign: Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art…

My point is not that women might like different things, just as Ted still enjoyed playing Weasel Escape, but that because of the T-shirts and all that they feel unwelcome. It's like the inside jokes making Ted feel left out. Sure they could explain the jokes and culture, and sure, there are probably lots of nice people in software willing to explain the culture, but it's tiring to feel like you're on the outside cult…

That's not what the article said though. The women in the studies mentioned were turned off STEM by classroom decor, and by both men and women wearing nerdy t-shirts who mentioned the like to play video games.

Sounds like they are judging us!

We need to be clear about what's happening here. Otherwise we'll spend millions of dollars trying to 'fix' things and it turns out what should have happened, is that we need to stop watching Star Wars and stop wearing XKCD t-shirts.